Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

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cappuccino
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by cappuccino » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
sunnat wrote: The Venerable Ledi Sayadaw wrote :
destroy the latency level of personality view.
He then becomes a noble one (ariya) in the noble supermundane plane, one to be reborn in successively higher planes of existence."
If personality view is destroyed, who or what is reborn in successively higher planes of existence?

Since the personality changes, it's not eternally the same, nor completely not real.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:52 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:00 pm

In my opinion faith follower and Dhamma follower both are noble people even though they have not eradicated any fetters.
I accidently found this sutta and I think you will be interested in it because it show a very different way of determining or thinking about who is noble:
https://suttacentral.net/an2.42-51/en/sujato
45
“There are, mendicants, these two assemblies. What two? An ignoble assembly and a noble assembly. And what is an ignoble assembly? An assembly where the mendicants don’t truly understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. This is called an ignoble assembly.

And what is a noble assembly? An assembly where the mendicants truly understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. This is called a noble assembly. These are the two assemblies. The better of these two assemblies is the noble assembly.”
As you can see, here it is the true understanding of the four noble truths. We should remember that the noble eightfold path is said to be the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. I guess a question is whether "true" understanding of the four noble truths means that one accepts the noble eightfold path as the "true" way to end suffering regardless of whether one has a "true" understanding of the noble eightfold path. It seems to me that having a "true" understanding of the noble eightfold path only occurs at attaining arahantship and I don't think this is necessary to be considered noble usually.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by sentinel » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:06 am

Noble means when attain to Ariya stage , enter the stream of sainthood .
According to agama commentary , only 7 out of the eight mighty beings were categorized as an Ariya (Noble) .
The first one on the list of the eight mighty beings which is the person practising the path before attaining sotapanna label as Virtuous !

The same person whom attained anagamin before arhat stage , in between the passage of anagamin and arhat , is still an anagamin .


Note : this categorisation actually was considered late feature by some scholars . Actually in the text there weren't any definition about the Four Path !
In this case , spirit of Kalama text appear important if one really wants to get to the bottom of it .
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:20 am

Greetings sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:06 am
According to agama commentary , only 7 out of the eight mighty beings were categorized as an Ariya (Noble) .
Is there anything in our Theravada tradition that makes equivalent comments?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:26 am

.


Image




:lol:




.
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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:36 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:40 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 pm
Could you provide a reference please?
There was a general topic on SC nominating dodgy suttas and I recall BS didn’t support VB’s nomination of MN 117. Plus he conceded to me personally, when we discussed it verbally, once.

I found it
Sujato wrote:Thanks everyone for their suggestions.

Regarding MN 117 and SN 34, my initial thought is that, while they may indeed have late features, the bulk of the content is pretty normal. Maybe they, or part of them, should be included, but they’re not at the top of my list.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/so ... ts/5795/11
Thanks. As he says: "they may indeed have late features". Which is, of course, the point that Vens Analayo, Brahmali, etc have made.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:07 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:36 am
Thanks. As he says: "they may indeed have late features". Which is, of course, the point that Vens Analayo, Brahmali, etc have made.
Unlikely. Sujato said: "the bulk of the content is pretty normal". Where as Vens Analayo, Brahmali, etc, give the impression or suspicion of suggesting the mundane right view is the "True Dhamma".

The Abhidhamma features are not the two sorts of Right View but the language found, such as: "the thinking, directed thinking, resolve, mental fixity, mental transfixion, focused awareness & verbal fabrications " etc

I think if you can't discern the two sorts of Right View, you don't understand the suttas, because the mundane right view is written many times in the suttas and is very mundane.

The Noble Right View is found in many chapters of suttas:
And what is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent [here], a factor of the path?

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā?

It’s the wisdom—the faculty of wisdom [here], the power of wisdom [here], the awakening factor of investigation of principles [here], and right view [here] as a factor of the path—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.

Yā kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṃ bhāvayato paññā paññindriyaṃ paññābaladhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo sammādiṭṭhi maggaṅgaṃ—
It seems clear the mundane right view does not lead to Nibbana (even some of Analayo's beloved Agama appear to say it does):
And how does a good person have the view of a good person?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, sappuriso sappurisadiṭṭhi hoti?

It’s when a good person has such a view:
Idha, bhikkhave, sappuriso evaṃdiṭṭhi hoti:

There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is an afterlife. There are duties to mother and father. There are beings reborn spontaneously. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are well attained and practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’

‘atthi dinnaṃ, atthi yiṭṭhaṃ, atthi hutaṃ, atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṃ kammānaṃ phalaṃ vipāko, atthi ayaṃ loko, atthi paro loko, atthi mātā, atthi pitā, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā sammaggatā sammāpaṭipannā ye imañca lokaṃ parañca lokaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedentī’ti.

That’s how a good person has the view of a good person.
Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, sappuriso sappurisadiṭṭhi hoti. (7)

And how does a good person give the gifts of a good person?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, sappuriso sappurisadānaṃ deti?

It’s when a good person gives a gift carefully, with their own hand, and thoughtfully. They don’t give the dregs, and they give with consideration for consequences.

Idha, bhikkhave, sappuriso sakkaccaṃ dānaṃ deti, sahatthā dānaṃ deti, cittīkatvā dānaṃ deti, anapaviṭṭhaṃ dānaṃ deti, āgamanadiṭṭhiko dānaṃ deti.

That’s how a good person gives the gifts of a good person.
Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, sappuriso sappurisadānaṃ deti. (8)

That good person—who has such good qualities, associates with good people, and has the intentions, counsel, speech, actions, views, and giving of a good person—
So, bhikkhave, sappuriso evaṃ saddhammasamannāgato, evaṃ sappurisabhatti, evaṃ sappurisacintī, evaṃ sappurisamantī, evaṃ sappurisavāco, evaṃ sappurisakammanto, evaṃ sappurisadiṭṭhi;

when their body breaks up, after death, is reborn in the place where good people are reborn.
evaṃ sappurisadānaṃ datvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā yā sappurisānaṃ gati tattha upapajjati.

And what is the place where good people are reborn?
Kā ca, bhikkhave, sappurisānaṃ gati?

A state of greatness among gods or humans.
Devamahattatā vā manussamahattatā vā”ti.

That is what the Buddha said.
Idamavoca bhagavā.

Satisfied, the mendicants were happy with what the Buddha said.
Attamanā te bhikkhū bhagavato bhāsitaṃ abhinandunti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn110/en/sujato
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:07 am
I think if you can't discern the two sorts of Right View, you don't understand the suttas,
...
I'm sorry I don't see any quotes there that suggest the same bifurcation of Right Views as MN117 (your first quote is from MN117).

Your second quote doesn't seem to refer to "right view", it refers to "views of a good person".

If you find another sutta that has a similar reference to two sorts of right view (apart from the suttas that Ven Dhammando kindly provided viewtopic.php?p=16848#p16848), please quote it.
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed May 06, 2009 3:04 pm
... [T]he Mahacattarisaka Sutta is unique.

I should note that the designations 'mundane' and 'supramundane' for these two right view are actually from the Petakopadesa and Nettipakarana, two early treatises on hermeneutics. At MN. 117 the distinction is expressed with the words 'sāsava' and 'anāsava', "accompanied by cankers" and "free of cankers" respectively.
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:08 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:16 am

Your second quote doesn't seem to refer to "right view", it refers to "views of a good person".
He introduces the second quote with "It seems clear the mundane right view does not lead to Nibbana (even some of Analayo's beloved Agama appear to say it does): ".....and if you look at the excerpt you will see that a person who holds mundane right view is said to be reborn in "A state of greatness among gods or humans"...so clearly they have not reached nibbana...so his introductory remarks are supported. Since mundane right view is given and it does not lead to nibbana it strongly suggests that there must be some other version of right view which does lead to nibbana and so a bifurcation of right view is strongly implied.

It should be noted however that it is not explicitly stated that a good person's right view being inadequate is the reason for not reaching nibbana....it could be that there is some other issue involved but it really does seem that if there was another issue that it would be presented....so in the absence of some other issue explaining the failure to reach nibbana it seems that inadequacy of the right view is the culprit again supporting the idea of some kind of bifurcation.
chownah
P.S. I hold that the dual right view is true dhamma because for me it makes alot of issues which seemed rather murky to me come crystal clear and has given me what I consider to be a better perspective on how the dhamma benefits individuals with such a wide range of beliefs.
chownah
Last edited by chownah on Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by Zom » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:48 pm

MN 117' "2 kinds of views" is a fake, forget it. The Right View factor itself is a complex one and includes many things. See MN 9 for example, which is all about Right View. And its all Right View.

So, to start practising one must have at least a portion of it. Say, 50%. Then, grudally, by wisdom and faith, one makes to 60-70-100%, where 100% is the fruit of stream-entry. But even with 50% one can get very far, as seen from Buddha's teachers' cases - Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta; and from Kassapa's students - they all had jhanas (8th Path Factor, fully developed), but didn't have 100% right view. However, once they heard Dhamma, their view was accomplish AND they attained arahantship just on the place, upon listening to a sutta. Their Path was complete, but a small fraction of Right Views was missing.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by cappuccino » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:05 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: :lol:
:goodpost:

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:34 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:08 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:16 am

Your second quote doesn't seem to refer to "right view", it refers to "views of a good person".
He introduces the second quote with "It seems clear the mundane right view does not lead to Nibbana (even some of Analayo's beloved Agama appear to say it does): ".....and if you look at the excerpt you will see that a person who holds mundane right view is said to be reborn in "A state of greatness among gods or humans"...so clearly they have not reached nibbana...so his introductory remarks are supported. Since mundane right view is given and it does not lead to nibbana it strongly suggests that there must be some other version of right view which does lead to nibbana and so a bifurcation of right view is strongly implied.
I don't think anyone is disputing that there is a progression on the Path, and that the complete Path is required for nibbana. The question is about the specific question of there being "two kinds of right view".

I don't see anywhere in MN110 https://suttacentral.net/mn110/en/sujato that refers to "Right View".
And how does a good person have the view of a good person?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, sappuriso sappurisadiṭṭhi hoti?
https://suttacentral.net/mn110/en/sujato#22.1
Whereas MN7 has:
“Reverends, they speak of this thing called ‘right view’.
“‘Sammādiṭṭhi sammādiṭṭhī’ti, āvuso, vuccati.
https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/sujato#2.1
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by SarathW » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:26 pm

Say I am a medical student (Faith and Dhamma follower) and want to be a doctor. (Arahnat)
Do I have to follow the path (Noble Eightfold Path)of previous doctors? (Arahants)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:36 pm

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:26 pm
Say I am a medical student (Faith and Dhamma follower) and want to be a doctor. (Arahnat)
Do I have to follow the path (Noble Eightfold Path)of previous doctors? (Arahants)
You study first, and then if you are able to pass your studies, you will be able to practice.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by SarathW » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:49 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:36 pm
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:26 pm
Say I am a medical student (Faith and Dhamma follower) and want to be a doctor. (Arahnat)
Do I have to follow the path (Noble Eightfold Path)of previous doctors? (Arahants)
You study first, and then if you are able to pass your studies, you will be able to practice.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Ok.
It is a bad example. :embarassed:
Buddha said the path and fruit are immediate. (Akaliko)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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