When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

[Grigoris]

Perhaps my question is not clear. Let me try to ask in a different manner.

It is an Arahant that can be said to have achieved cessation of contact. Yes, definitely one can say sensuality has ceased for an Arahant. But an Anagamin is also said to have given up sensuality. How should the two be reconciled ?

You cannot stop contact because even in realms where beings have none of the five physical senses, they still have mind.

That is the reason why the links of Dependent Origination are broken at the point of ignorance.

[Pulsar]

Volvo wrote

Contact is a coming together of object (e.g. form), sensitive organ (eye) and corresponding consciousness (eye consciousness). Therefore even Buddha had contacts

True. The difference between Arahant and non-arahant is the contact of arahant does not lead to volitional formations, that lead to consciousness

• The consciousness of the Arahant is therefore not dependently originated

So of course the cycle of dependent origination is broken in the arahant, and he does not have mental aggregates that cling.

Sariputta describes to Ananda the nature of perceptions in Bhavanirodha or cessation, in an eye opening scene.
Excerpt from AN 10.7

One perception arose and another perception ceased in me: "The cessation of existence is nibbana; the cessation of existence is nibbana"

Just as when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises, and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: "The cessation of existence is nibbana" The cessation of existence is nibbana'
On that occasion friend, I was percipient: "The cessation of existence is Nibbana"

Bhavanirodho nibbanam bhavanirodam nibbanam.

[Pulsar]

Srilankaputra asked

But an Anagamin is also said to have given up sensuality?

Not entirely, since the AN 6.63 says

Greedy intention is a person’s sensual pleasure

The anagamin still has some conceit left, the greedy intention for "I", a small amount though.
You also asked

If an living Arahant has achieved the cessation* of ignorance it follows that he has achieved the cessation* of contact

Volvo explained the contact of the arahant, there is contact but, cessation* of contact in the sense, that contact does not lead to volitional intentions, so it is an ineffective contact, that will not engage him in DO
PS those are some pretty good Dhamma investigations, dear Srilankanputra, Dhamma Vicaya, as in the second factor of seven enlightenment factors.

[Srilankaputra]

it is an ineffective contact

Thanks. I liked the word 'inconsequential' but your expression is much clearer. What i was trying say is that the pali word 'nirodha' also carries this meaning. Not just the final ending of contact at parinibbana.

[Srilankaputra]

The anagamin still has some conceit left, the greedy intention for "I", a small amount though.

To my understanding this cannot be classified as kama. Kama is pleasure derived from the five strings of sensuality only.

[Pulsar]

Srilankaputra wrote

To my understanding this cannot be classified as kama. Kama is pleasure derived from the five strings of sensuality only

You may be right, I have no idea how remaining conceit may be classified. It is a residual
longing for I, an Asava. I just tossed out that idea, hoping someone else may have a better definition
for Anagami with residual conceit, or residual sense of self. Kind of almost pure, but not quite.

[DooDoot]

phassanirodhā ... the cessation of contact

Thank you. But the above is copy & paste of a translation rather than an explanation.

If an living Arahant has achieved the cessation* of ignorance it follows that he has achieved the cessation* of contact.

Not necessarily. If we refer to SN 22.81, it says about the arising of dependently originated contact:

When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises.

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato

Therefore, the impression is, when cessation of contact (phassanirodhā) occurs, what occurs in cessation of avijjāsamphassajena (contact with ignorance). Many suttas say a living Arahant has contact, as posted here.

Sariputta describes to Ananda the nature of perceptions in Bhavanirodha or cessation, in an eye opening scene. Excerpt from AN 10.7

Well quoted. Sadhu.

Regards

[Srilankaputra]

When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises.

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato

This sutta completely agrees with what i am saying. Ending of ignorance and craving is nirodha. Let me try this way;

from the parayana vagga,

Having nothing,
clinging to no thing:
That is the island,
there is no other.
That's Unbinding, I tell you,
the total ending of aging & death.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

An Arahant has nothing. He has completely done away with contact. What ever makes contact he is unagitated. This is passa-nirodha of an living Arahant.

[Srilankaputra]

Many suttas say a living Arahant has contact

yes i agree. Please read all the posts.

[auto]

So of course the cycle of dependent origination is broken in the arahant, and he does not have mental aggregates that cling.

the desire for clinging aggregates is what makes the aggregates clinging.

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

The desire and greed for the five grasping aggregates is the grasping there.” Yo kho, āvuso visākha, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu chandarāgo taṃ tattha upādānan”ti.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the form clinging-aggregate.

when mind comes virajjati/dispassioned, it doesn't find pleasure in anywhere, hence the 5 lower fetters are gone. But the desire for clinging aggregates is still there. That desire will be ceased too at some point.

I just tossed out that idea, hoping someone else may have a better definition
for Anagami with residual conceit, or residual sense of self. Kind of almost pure, but not quite.

you are fixed on sense of self is someway an issue. You haven't explained why.

[Grigoris]

An Arahant has nothing. He has completely done away with contact. What ever makes contact he is unagitated. This is passa-nirodha of an living Arahant.

If he has done away with contact, then how can contact leave them un-agitated, given that there is no contact???

Either there is contact, but it does not agitate him, or there is no contact.

Make up your mind.

[Srilankaputra]

An Arahant has nothing. He has completely done away with contact. What ever makes contact he is unagitated. This is passa-nirodha of an living Arahant.

If he has done away with contact, then how can contact leave them un-agitated, given that there is no contact???

Either there is contact, but it does not agitate him, or there is no contact.

Make up your mind.

The following is what i had in mind when i used the phrase 'done away with contact' ;

"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

"The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame...

"The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame...

"The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame...

"The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame...

"The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.

"He grows disenchanted with the ear...

"He grows disenchanted with the nose...

"He grows disenchanted with the tongue...

"He grows disenchanted with the body...

"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too.

Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of the 1,000 monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentation/effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Srilankaputra]

From Dvayatanupassana Sutta: The Contemplation of Dualities

Siyā aññena'pi pariyāyena sammā dvayatānupasasnāti iti ce bhikkhave, pucchitāro assuṃ siyātisasu vacaniyā, kathañca siyā yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti. Sabbaṃ phassapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā, phassassa tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhevoti ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā. Evaṃ sammā dvayatānupassino kho bhikkhave, bhikkhuno appamattassa ātāpito pahitattassa viharato dvinnaṃ phalānaṃ aññataraṃ phalaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme aññā, sati vā upādisese anāgāmitāti.

"Now, if there are any who ask, 'Would there be the right contemplation of dualities in yet another way?' they should be told, 'There would.' 'How would that be?' 'Whatever stress comes into play is all from contact as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very contact, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Grigoris]

From Dvayatanupassana Sutta: The Contemplation of Dualities

Siyā aññena'pi pariyāyena sammā dvayatānupasasnāti iti ce bhikkhave, pucchitāro assuṃ siyātisasu vacaniyā, kathañca siyā yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti. Sabbaṃ phassapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā, phassassa tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhevoti ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā. Evaṃ sammā dvayatānupassino kho bhikkhave, bhikkhuno appamattassa ātāpito pahitattassa viharato dvinnaṃ phalānaṃ aññataraṃ phalaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme aññā, sati vā upādisese anāgāmitāti.

"Now, if there are any who ask, 'Would there be the right contemplation of dualities in yet another way?' they should be told, 'There would.' 'How would that be?' 'Whatever stress comes into play is all from contact as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very contact, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The Buddha is explaining a contemplation on one aspect of Dependent Origination here. I am sure this is part of a series of teachings taking one through a contemplation of each aspect of Dependent Origination. This is a common teaching technique in retreats.

[Srilankaputra]

The Buddha is explaining a contemplation on one aspect of Dependent Origination here. I am sure this is part of a series of teachings taking one through a contemplation of each aspect of Dependent Origination.

The following are the sixteen contemplations listed in Dvayatanupassana Sutta (The foot notes on my sinhala translation says each method an independent way of reaching nibbana)

• 'This is stress. This is the origination of stress': this is one contemplation. '
  This is the cessation of stress. This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': this is a second contemplation
  
  Idaṃ dukkhaṃ, ayaṃ dukkhasamudayoti ayamekānupassanā. Ayaṃ dukkhanirodho, ayaṃdukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadāti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• 'Whatever stress comes into play is all from acquisition as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation.
  'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very acquisition, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation.
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ upadhipaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Upadhīnaṃ tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• 'Whatever stress comes into play is all from ignorance as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ avijjāpaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• Whatever stress comes into play is all from fabrication as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very fabrication, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ saṅkhārapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Saṅkhārānaṃ tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• Whatever stress comes into play is all from consciousness as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very consciousness, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation.
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ viññāṇapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Viññāṇassa tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• 'Whatever stress comes into play is all from contact as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very contact, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ phassapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Phassassa tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• Whatever stress comes into play is all from feeling as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very feeling, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation.
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ vedanāpaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Vedanānaṃ tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• Whatever stress comes into play is all from craving as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very craving, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ taṇhāpaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Taṇhāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• Whatever stress comes into play is all from clinging as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very clinging, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation.
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ upādānapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Upādānānaṃ tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• 'Whatever stress comes into play is all from disturbance as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very disturbance, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second
  contemplation
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ ārambhapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Ārambhānaṃ tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• Whatever stress comes into play is all from nutriment as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very nutriment, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ āhārapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Āhārānaṃ tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• Whatever stress comes into play is all from what is perturbed as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of what is perturbed, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation
  
  Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ iñjitapaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Iñjitānaṃ tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• For one who is dependent, there is wavering': this is one contemplation. 'One who is independent doesn't waver': this is a second contemplation
  
  Nissitassa calitaṃ hotīti, ayamekānupassanā. Anissito na calatīti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• Formless phenomena are more peaceful than forms': this is one contemplation. 'Cessation is more peaceful than formless phenomena': this is a second contemplation
  
  arūpā santatarāti, ayamekānupassanā. Arūpehi nirodho santataroti, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• 'Whatever is considered as "This is true" by the world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk, is rightly seen as it actually is with right discernment by the noble ones as "This is false"': this is one contemplation. 'Whatever is considered as "This is false" by the world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk, is rightly seen as it actually is with right discernment by the noble ones as "This is true"': this is a second contemplation
  
  yaṃ bhikkhave sadevakassa lokassa samārakassa sabrahamakassa sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadeva manussāya idaṃ saccanti upanijjhāyitaṃ tada' mariyānaṃ etaṃ musāti yathā bhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ ayamekānupassanā, yaṃ bhikkhave sadevakassa lokassa samārakassa sabrahamakassa sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadeva manussāya idaṃ saccanti upanijjhāyitaṃ tada' mariyānaṃ etaṃ musāti yathā bhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ ayamekānupassanā, yaṃ bhikkhave sadevamanussa etaṃ musāti upanijjhāyitaṃ tada mariyānaṃ etaṃ musāti yathā bhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

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• 'Whatever is considered as "This is bliss" by the world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk, is rightly seen as it actually is with right discernment by the noble ones as "This is stressful"': this is one contemplation. 'Whatever is considered as "This is stressful" by the world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk, is rightly seen as it actually is with right discernment by the noble ones as "This is bliss"': this is a second contemplation
  
  Yaṃ, bhikkhave,sadevakassa lokassa samārakassa sabrahmakassa sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāyasadevamanussāya idaṃ sukhanti upanijjhāyitaṃ, tadamariyānaṃ etaṃ dukkhantiyathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ, ayamekānupassanā. Yaṃ, bhikkhave,sadevakassa … pe … sadevamanussāya idaṃ dukkhanti upanijjhāyitaṃ tadamariyānaṃetaṃ sukhanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ, ayaṃ dutiyānupassanā

And while this explanation was being given, the minds of 60 monks, through lack of clinging, were fully released from fermentation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html