Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

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pilgrim
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Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by pilgrim » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:39 am

Not a good look
"Social activist and veterinarian Somchai Sirithepsongklod, who exposed the scandal via his recent posts on Facebook along with photographic evidence of a white-clad man resembling Phra Julien standing next to a Swiss woman during their alleged “honeymoon trip” in Chanthaburi province five years ago"
https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30374563

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:11 am

It's horrifying how little understanding of vinaya a senior religious official has:
Mae Hong Son’s ecclesiastical provincial governor Phra Sumonsatsanakij pointed out that if Phra Julien had committed the serious monastic indiscipline as reportedly confessed by him, he must be disrobed at the original temple where he had been ordained.
The highlighted text is utter nonsense. The monk who has sex ceases to be a monk the instant he has sex. There can't be any disrobing ceremony because the bhikkhu is not a bhikkhu any more.

The ecclesiastical provincial governor either shows his stunning ignorance of vinaya, or a contempt of the Buddha's rules in favor of corrupted Thai custom.

santa100
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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by santa100 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:47 am

Well, don't be surprised that in a not too distant future, the terms Hiri and Ottappa will completely disappear from all Buddhist texts. It'll usher in the era of the "yellow-necks" monastics.

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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:53 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:47 am
Well, don't be surprised that in a not too distant future, the terms Hiri and Ottappa will completely disappear from all Buddhist texts. It'll usher in the era of the "yellow-necks" monastics.




Thanks. The link substantially repolishes my respects and attitudes on "monks-of-the-present-days".


"monks" with only yellow strings round their necks [imo, with no other items nor practice indicative of their monk-ness]
Aananda, in the future there will be the last bhikkhus in the lineage, not virtuous with evil things, wearing yellow strings round their necks. I say, even the results of an offering made to them on account of the Community is innumerable and limitless. I would not tell you, how an offering made to the Community is more fruitful than a personal offering.

The moral of the passage by the Buddha, in the above passage, imo, is ... we still can get innumerable and limitless results just because of the mere presence [remaining] of those "monks with only yellow strings around the neck," as long as our mindset is right.

Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.


.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

santa100
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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by santa100 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:08 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:The moral of the passage by the Buddha, in the above passage, imo, is ... we still can get innumerable and limitless results just because of the mere presence [remaining] of those "monks with only yellow strings around the neck," as long as our mindset is right.
Uh...not so fast there, friend Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta. I'd rather take the Buddha's advice in AN 5.41 instead of MN 142, for He did seem to suggest certain level of discretion before giving in that sutta:
AN 5.41 wrote:Again, with wealth acquired by energetic striving … … righteously gained, the noble disciple establishes an uplifting offering of alms—an offering that is heavenly, resulting in happiness, conducive to heaven—to those ascetics and brahmins who refrain from intoxication and heedlessness, who are settled in patience and mildness, who tame themselves, calm themselves, and train themselves for nibbāna. This is the fifth utilization of wealth.

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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:44 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:08 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:The moral of the passage by the Buddha, in the above passage, imo, is ... we still can get innumerable and limitless results just because of the mere presence [remaining] of those "monks with only yellow strings around the neck," as long as our mindset is right.
Uh...not so fast there, friend Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta. I'd rather take the Buddha's advice in AN 5.41 instead of MN 142, for He did seem to suggest certain level of discretion before giving in that sutta:
AN 5.41 wrote:Again, with wealth acquired by energetic striving … … righteously gained, the noble disciple establishes an uplifting offering of alms—an offering that is heavenly, resulting in happiness, conducive to heaven—to those ascetics and brahmins who refrain from intoxication and heedlessness, who are settled in patience and mildness, who tame themselves, calm themselves, and train themselves for nibbāna. This is the fifth utilization of wealth.

Apology, if i haven't made myself clear.

I just want to say is ... even those "monks with just yellow strings around the neck" can [if the mindset/attitude/understanding of the people dealing with them is right] serve as a [symbolic] passageway to the ultimate Sangha "community" which includes the Buddha Himself.


.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:05 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:44 am
I just want to say is ... even those "monks with just yellow strings around the neck" can [if the mindset/attitude/understanding of the people dealing with them is right] serve as a [symbolic] passageway to the ultimate Sangha "community" which includes the Buddha Himself.
Its good he confessed and moves on to a way of life more suited to his disposition. It shows how long many can remain monks even though they have not attained inner peace. Trappings, pressures & expectations of fame.




ข้าพเจ้า อดึตพระจูเลี่ยน ขอรับว่าข้าพเจ้าได้กระทำความผิดพระธรรมวินัยจริง ที่ละเมิดพระธรรมวินัยเสพเมถุนกับหญิง เมื่อหลายปีที่แล้วและเสียใจจากการกระทำดังกล่าวจึงตัดสินใจสละจากสมณะเพศในวันนี้เป็นการไถ่โทษและสำนึกผิด
แต่ข้าพเจ้ายังมีศรัทธาต่อพระพุทธศาสนามิเสื่อมคลาย หากมีครูบาอาจารย์ท่านใด เห็นว่า ข้าพเจ้ายังมีศรัทธาเหล่านี้อยู่จริง ได้โปรดแนะนำสั่งสอน ชี้แนะ ให้ข้าพเจ้าได้เห็นได้รู้หนทางที่ถูกที่ตรงด้วยเถิด ข้าพเจ้าจะไม่ร้องขอความเมตตาใดๆ จากผู้ใด นอกจากยอมรับและสัมนึกผิดอย่างที่สุด ที่ทำให้ผู้มีศรัทธาแก่ข้าพเจ้าต้องเกิดความผิดหวัง ข้าพเจ้ากราบขอโทษอย่างสุดหัวใจ และไม่ว่าโลกจะตัดสินในความเห็นผิดนี้ของข้าพเจ้าอย่างไร ข้าพเจ้าขอน้อมรับด้วยความกล้าหาญ และขอรับผลของกรรมนี้ไว้แต่เพียงผู้เดียว

จากนี้ต่อไป ข้าพเจ้าก็จะขออุทิศตัวช่วยเหลือ ผู้ยากไร้ในถิ่นทุรกันดารต่อไป ข้าพเจ้าไม่เคยกระทำผิดในเรื่องของเงินทอง ข้าพเจ้าไม่สนใจเรื่องเงินทอง ข้าพเจ้าสนใจที่จะช่วยเหลือผู้ที่ตกทุกข์ได้ยากเพียงเท่านั้น ข้าพเจ้าไม่อยากครอบครองสิ่งใดมากมายไปกว่า การได้อุทิศตนช่วยเหลือคนเหล่านี้
และไม่ว่าผลจะเป็นอย่างไร ข้าพเจ้าจะขอทำความดีนี้นี้ต่อไป เพื่อช่วยเหลือคนยากไร้เหล่านี้ เพื่อเป็นการไถ่โทษให้กับความผิดที่ข้าพเจ้าได้กระทำให้ผู้ที่มีศรัทธาแก่ข้าพเจ้าเสียใจ ทุกข์ใจ ร้อนใจ ข้าพเจ้ายินดีชดใช้ด้วยการทำสิ่งนี้ และโปรดมีเมตตาให้อภัยให้ข้าพเจ้า
.
สุดท้ายนี้ข้าพเจ้า ขออโหสิกรรมต่อทุกๆท่าน ที่ข้าพเจ้าได้เป็นต้นเหตุของเรื่องนี้ และขออุทิศชีวิตที่เหลืออยู่ในเพศฆราวาสช่วยเหลือผู้ยากไร้และยังคงศรัทธาในพระพุทธศาสนาอย่างแท้จริงไม่เสื่อมคลาย
I am God the, I am guilty of a true discipline that violates the law of discipline, debauchery with women several years ago and regret from such actions, so decided to give up from today's gender, as a penance and repent.
But I still have faith in Buddhism. If you see that I have these faith, please guide me to see the right way. I will not ask for any mercy from anyone but accept and The most wrong thing that makes the faithful to me must be disappointed. I am deeply sorry for the heart and no matter how the world decides in this my opinion. I humbly accept the courage and claim the result of this karma.

From now on I will dedicate the poor to the poor in the wilderness. Cuddle I have never done wrong in the matter of money. I do not care about money. I am interested in helping those who fall in distress. Only I do not want to possess anything. More than being dedicated, helping these people.
And no matter what the result, I will continue to do this good deed to help these poor people, as a redemption for the sins that I have done to those who have faith to me. I am sorry, I am sad. I am willing to pay by doing this and please have it. Mercy, forgive me.
.
Finally, I am sorry for all of you that I have caused this thing and dedicate the rest of the life in gender. Help the poor and still faith in the real Buddhist. Not decadent.

Translation #2
I am the King of Julian Requesting that I have committed an actual discipline Who violated the discipline of Buddhism and women Many years ago, and regretted that such actions, therefore, decided to abandon the monk's gender today, to be atone for and repent.
But I still have faith in Buddhism. If any teacher sees that I still have these faiths Please advise and instruct me to see the right way. I will not ask for any mercy from anyone except accepting and utterly guilty. Which caused the faithful to me to be disappointed I respectfully apologize. And no matter how the world judged in my wrong opinion I bow with courage. And obtain the result of this karma solely

From now on, I would like to devote my help. The poor in the wilderness I have never been guilty of money. I don't care about money. I am only interested in helping those who are suffering. I do not want to possess anything more than Being dedicated to helping these people
And regardless of the outcome I will continue to do this good. To help these poor people In order to be a ransom for the sins I have made to those who have faith in me, grieve, and sorrow. And please have mercy to forgive me
.
Finally, I Please forgive everyone. Which I have been the cause of this And would like to dedicate the rest of life in secular sex to help the poor and still remain faithful in Buddhism

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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:11 am
It's horrifying how little understanding of vinaya a senior religious official has:

[...]

The highlighted text is utter nonsense. The monk who has sex ceases to be a monk the instant he has sex.
Well, yes, but it's not yet established as a public fact that he is no longer a monk. In the instructions on how to handle suspected pārājika cases in Buddhaghosa's Vinaya commentary it states that when a monk confesses to an action that would amount to a defeating offence, the confessor should not immediately say to him: "You are defeated." Instead he should arrange for him to be interrogated about his actions by theras learned in Vinaya in order to ascertain if the confession really has a factual basis. Sometimes, in spite of the monk's conviction of his guilt, the interrogators may discover some exculpatory factor that will serve to acquit him. For example, in one commentarial story a monk thought that he had committed the pārājika offence of stealing, but on investigation it turned out that the item he'd stolen had been relinquished by its owner beforehand and so the factor of "something not given" (adinnaṃ) was missing.
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:11 am
There can't be any disrobing ceremony because the bhikkhu is not a bhikkhu any more.
In Thailand even a monk who confesses to a pārājika offence will be required to recite the formula for returning to the household life. It's basically a safety precaution. Suppose that the monk is mistaken and hasn't in fact committed a pārājika. If he were to just take off his robes and walk away, conceiving himself to be a householder when he's in fact still technically a monk, then he might proceed to engage in some action that would make him really pārājika. But if he recites the disrobing formula, officially returns to the household life and then later comes to realize that he's innocent, then he'll be free to re-ordain.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:44 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 am
It's basically a safety precaution.
It sounds wise. Also, formal confession can probably stop the man from escaping to a foreign country & masquerading as a monk. I wonder what happened in the old saga of my old friend Ajahn Yantra and the Thai authorities? :spy: :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Dhammanando
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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:19 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:44 am
I wonder what happened in the old saga of my old friend Ajahn Yantra and the Thai authorities? :spy: :shrug:
This is the last news I heard of him.

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/720939 ... -thailand/
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:32 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:19 am
This is the last news I heard of him.

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/720939 ... -thailand/
He looks like a reusi.

But what is with the green robes?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:52 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:32 am
But what is with the green robes?
I'm not sure, but I suspect it's for the same reason that the monks of the Santi Asoke Sangha wear a non-standard colour. Since they regard themselves as bhikkhus they have to wear robes of some sort. But since they're officially considered to be not bhikkhus (for invalid ordination in the case of Santi Asoke, for pārājika in the case of Yantra) if they were to wear normal robes then they'd be liable to arrest in Thailand for impersonating bhikkhus.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Grigoris
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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:29 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:52 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:32 am
But what is with the green robes?
I'm not sure, but I suspect it's for the same reason that the monks of the Santi Asoke Sangha wear a non-standard colour. Since they regard themselves as bhikkhus they have to wear robes of some sort. But since they're officially considered to be not bhikkhus (for invalid ordination in the case of Santi Asoke, for pārājika in the case of Yantra) if they were to wear normal robes then they'd be liable to arrest in Thailand for impersonating bhikkhus.
Nice loophole!

He seems to be hanging out with and blessing proper bhikkhu though.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Canadian monk to be disrobed after admitting to sexual relations

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:09 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:10 am
...
...
In Thailand even a monk who confesses to a pārājika offence will be required to recite the formula for returning to the household life. It's basically a safety precaution. Suppose that the monk is mistaken and hasn't in fact committed a pārājika. If he were to just take off his robes and walk away, conceiving himself to be a householder when he's in fact still technically a monk, then he might proceed to engage in some action that would make him really pārājika. But if he recites the disrobing formula, officially returns to the household life and then later comes to realize that he's innocent, then he'll be free to re-ordain.
:bow:
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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