Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Freawaru
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Freawaru »

DorjePhurba wrote: I think the main thing that has confused me is the tradition of the Vissudimagga. I just don't see that as something that conforms with the suttas. It seems that is the main reason why people do
not practice jhana more. People are told its basically out of reach for them, which seems to be untrue.
Can't be from the Visuddhimagga. If I recall correctly it states a probability of one in a hundred or one in a thousand for jhana and elements. That is pretty high chance if you ask me. I mean, it isn't as if most of the billions of humans currently on this planet are even interested in it. Thus, when one feels an interest in this kind of meditation the chance that this is due to kammic traits from a past life (from one in that jhana was already successfully achieved) are rather high.
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Dan74
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:tilt, i always value your contributions, your erudition never ceases to amaze me.
Thank you, he said blushing.
A blushing wolf? I am not familiar with this expression. Is this something like crocodile tears? :D

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tiltbillings
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:tilt, i always value your contributions, your erudition never ceases to amaze me.
Thank you, he said blushing.
A blushing wolf? I am not familiar with this expression. Is this something like crocodile tears? :D

_/|\_
Jackal, not a wolf, and no. Genuinely expressed, jackals being a very direct sort.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Dan74 »

Good to know!

I wouldn't know a jackal from a wolf anymore than a weasel from a ferret... :embarassed:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:Good to know!

I wouldn't know a ... a weasel from a ferret... :embarassed:
That's easy. Jackals look far more like coyotes than wolves. Here are five pup photos that should make it all very clear which is which:
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

Please excuse the canine and mustelid excursus. Now back to our regularly scheduled programs: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question, brought to you by Sidebars R Us.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Dan74 »

Hmmm.... thanks Tilt, but I think I'll sooner figure our vipassana vs shamatha... still the pics are gorgeous - I will show them to the kids tomorrow!

Sorry :focus:

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Moggalana
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Moggalana »

Freawaru wrote:
DorjePhurba wrote: I think the main thing that has confused me is the tradition of the Vissudimagga. I just don't see that as something that conforms with the suttas. It seems that is the main reason why people do
not practice jhana more. People are told its basically out of reach for them, which seems to be untrue.
Can't be from the Visuddhimagga. If I recall correctly it states a probability of one in a hundred or one in a thousand for jhana and elements. That is pretty high chance if you ask me. I mean, it isn't as if most of the billions of humans currently on this planet are even interested in it. Thus, when one feels an interest in this kind of meditation the chance that this is due to kammic traits from a past life (from one in that jhana was already successfully achieved) are rather high.
from leighb.com:
However, the Visuddhimagga states in section XII.8 that of those who undertake the meditation path, only one in 1,000,000 (at best) can reach absorption (1). We don't have to take this figure literally to begin to understand that the Jhanas as discussed in the Visuddhimagga are of a much deeper level of concentration than those described in the suttas. Basically, the Visuddhimagga Jhanas seem to be much more developed and systematized than those of the suttas.

(1)"[T]he kasina preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it." Vsm. XII.8
Thus only 1 in 100 x 100 x 100 = 1,000,000 can reach absorption (Jhana) - using the most optimistic figures.

Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Moggalana wrote: from leighb.com:
However, the Visuddhimagga states in section XII.8 that of those who undertake the meditation path, only one in 1,000,000 (at best) can reach absorption (1). We don't have to take this figure literally to begin to understand that the Jhanas as discussed in the Visuddhimagga are of a much deeper level of concentration than those described in the suttas. Basically, the Visuddhimagga Jhanas seem to be much more developed and systematized than those of the suttas.

(1)"[T]he kasina preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it." Vsm. XII.8
Thus only 1 in 100 x 100 x 100 = 1,000,000 can reach absorption (Jhana) - using the most optimistic figures.
And this is considering those who begin meditating, not all the population! Obviously the Visuddhimagga is wrong.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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IanAnd
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by IanAnd »

Moggalana wrote: from leighb.com:
However, the Visuddhimagga states in section XII.8 that of those who undertake the meditation path, only one in 1,000,000 (at best) can reach absorption (1). We don't have to take this figure literally to begin to understand that the Jhanas as discussed in the Visuddhimagga are of a much deeper level of concentration than those described in the suttas. Basically, the Visuddhimagga Jhanas seem to be much more developed and systematized than those of the suttas.

(1)"[T]he kasina preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it." Vsm. XII.8
Thus only 1 in 100 x 100 x 100 = 1,000,000 can reach absorption (Jhana) - using the most optimistic figures.
Warning: possible off topic comment ahead

For those of a cynical or conspiratorial bent of mind toward religion (i.e. those who see all man-made religion as a way or means for a small group of people to control the hearts and minds of a much larger group of people — kind of like the Roman Catholic Crutch...err I mean Church — by way of controlling the way they think and view reality) this is a perfect example of the historical evidence presenting how that process can occur.

If you can get the majority of people who follow your religious path to "buy into the idea" that they basically cannot reach the "magical goal of perfection" that the religion puts up on a pedestal as being the pinnacle of achievement, but that without this religion's guidance and coddling you might end up in a worse place at the end of your life than you would have had you not been a follower, then you have the perfect psychological sedative for controlling a mass congregation of people who will basically do whatever you ask of them for the most part, behind a masked and secretive cult-like organization of an orthodox religion.

If you are so naive as to think that this kind of thing does not go on, then you are a poor student of human recorded history as you will find evidence of this kind of abuse of people's minds down through history. Just look at the history of the Dark Ages and of the Catholic Inquisition to find evidence of "PC" (political correctness, as it is called nowadays). This kind of political and ecumenical propaganda and warfare on people's minds continues today, and can easily be seen in countries like North Korea and the China of Mao Tse Tung's era. The only difference is that today, both government organizations and religious organizations are used as propaganda tools to "keep the masses docile and in line."

Just for the record, I contend that anyone who has the desire to learn about absorption and to do what is necessary in order to achieve it can, and will, achieve it given that they have the right instruction and practice habits. Once the student experiences an example of absorption and thus learns what it is about, it become fairly easy to teach them how to access that state at will in order to build up their level of concentration.

And I basically disagree with the idea that "...that the Jhanas as discussed in the Visuddhimagga are of a much deeper level of concentration than those described in the suttas." This is nothing more than a qualified opinion at best, and one whose implications which, a few years ago, I might have also bought into had I not experienced what I have experienced with regard to the maturing of my ability to enter into absorption and the strengthening of discernment that is possible from such maturation. While I will agree that there can be a difference in the level of depth of absorption in going between the first, second, and third levels to the fourth level; it remains that in order to carry out insight meditation one only needs the ability to remain in the second, third or fourth level for significant "things" (realizations) to occur. The levels implied as being necessary by the Visuddhimagga are at best a red herring. Samadhi = samadhi = samadhi. Once you're there, you are there. Period. From there, it is just a matter of increasing one's ability at discernment for the realization of phenomena that makes the difference between an uninstructed worldling and an arahant.

:focus:
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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tiltbillings
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

IanAnd wrote:
Moggalana wrote: from leighb.com:
However, the Visuddhimagga states . . . .
Thanks. I knew I should have memorized the VM. The whole idea of the vipassana jhanas points to a recognition that VM description of jhanas does not tell the whole story.

And I basically disagree with the idea that "...that the Jhanas as discussed in the Visuddhimagga are of a much deeper level of concentration than those described in the suttas." This is nothing more than a qualified opinion at best,
What is interesting about that is the various understandings of jhana expressed by various people who have done serious jhana practice: http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Opinions are quite varied.
Once you're there, you are there. Period. From there, it is just a matter of increasing one's ability at discernment for the realization of phenomena that makes the difference between an uninstructed worldling and an arahant.
Which is another experienced based opinion added to the mix. From my experience, my opinion is more inline with Ven U Pandita’s teachings. It works.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Kenshou
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Kenshou »

Samadhi = samadhi = samadhi. Once you're there, you are there. Period. From there, it is just a matter of increasing one's ability at discernment for the realization of phenomena that makes the difference between an uninstructed worldling and an arahant.
Well put, it's important to remember what the whole purpose of samadhi is in the first place. Which can be easy to overlook sometimes, *cough* :thinking:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

Kenshou wrote:
Samadhi = samadhi = samadhi. Once you're there, you are there. Period. From there, it is just a matter of increasing one's ability at discernment for the realization of phenomena that makes the difference between an uninstructed worldling and an arahant.
Well put, it's important to remember what the whole purpose of samadhi is in the first place. Which can be easy to overlook sometimes, *cough*
Samadhi = samadhi = samadhi. Yes and no. It depends upon what is meant by this this "equation."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Freawaru
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Freawaru »

Moggalana wrote:
Freawaru wrote:
DorjePhurba wrote: I think the main thing that has confused me is the tradition of the Vissudimagga. I just don't see that as something that conforms with the suttas. It seems that is the main reason why people do
not practice jhana more. People are told its basically out of reach for them, which seems to be untrue.
Can't be from the Visuddhimagga. If I recall correctly it states a probability of one in a hundred or one in a thousand for jhana and elements. That is pretty high chance if you ask me. I mean, it isn't as if most of the billions of humans currently on this planet are even interested in it. Thus, when one feels an interest in this kind of meditation the chance that this is due to kammic traits from a past life (from one in that jhana was already successfully achieved) are rather high.
from leighb.com:
However, the Visuddhimagga states in section XII.8 that of those who undertake the meditation path, only one in 1,000,000 (at best) can reach absorption (1). We don't have to take this figure literally to begin to understand that the Jhanas as discussed in the Visuddhimagga are of a much deeper level of concentration than those described in the suttas. Basically, the Visuddhimagga Jhanas seem to be much more developed and systematized than those of the suttas.

(1)"[T]he kasina preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it." Vsm. XII.8
Thus only 1 in 100 x 100 x 100 = 1,000,000 can reach absorption (Jhana) - using the most optimistic figures.

Ah, okay, my memory failed me. But it DOES state this number for "a beginner, who has no past-life experience either" (looked it up this time before posting).

Well, let's face it: we are freaks - and not just in this life... :toilet:
DorjePhurba
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by DorjePhurba »

TIlt, I think my question would be where in the suttas is there a distinction between samatha jhana and vipassana jhana. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of vipassana jhana fairly new? What need is there for the idea of vipassana jhana if those who have done what the suttas say have achieved a jhanic state that allows for insight meditation? It seems the suttas say that jhana allows for vipassana unless you go to the formless jhanas. I just don't see why the idea of vipassana jhanas are necessary unless you accept the idea taken from the VM that jhana is a state where insight meditation can't be done. I appreciate your input and I'm enjoying this discussion very much.

With metta,
Chris
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