Authenticity of Scriptures?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Kurt
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Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by Kurt » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:33 am

It is claimed 500 years after the Buddha‘s demise texts were written down. Very probable changes took place here already. What ensures the authenticity of the scriptures 2000 years later? Languages are changing drastically over time, also when translated into other languages. How is this taken into considerations? How to read ancient texts in that context? What is the use of reading the scriptures, if their originality is unsure? Or is it sure and what I am writing here ist foolish? I would like to know this too, because all the time people are claiming ceaselessly the Buddha said this and said that complacently and I wonder, if they ever considered above mentioned topics. Thanks for your advice!

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Kim OHara
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:01 am

Kurt wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:33 am
... I wonder, if they ever considered above mentioned topics. Thanks for your advice!
Of course we/they have. Start here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3167

:reading:
Kim

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DooDoot
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:37 am

Kurt wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:33 am
... because all the time people are claiming ceaselessly the Buddha said this and said that
Yes. Its chronic.
Kurt wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:33 am
It is claimed 500 years after the Buddha‘s demise texts were written down. Very probable changes took place here already. What ensures the authenticity of the scriptures 2000 years later? Languages are changing drastically over time, also when translated into other languages. How is this taken into considerations?
The official Refuge in the Dhamma is the Dhamma is visible here-&-now & verifiable by the wise (the introspective). Therefore, since there is no requirement for blind belief but the opposite, the onus falls upon us to test & verify the teachings. When this is done, one may be amazed about how subtly authentic the core scriptures are. This subtle authenticity, with very subtle nuances in the Pali text, even allows one to identify suspected fake scriptures.
Kurt wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:33 am
How to read ancient texts in that context? What is the use of reading the scriptures, if their originality is unsure?
I suggest to start with the basics and proceed from there. The most basic is the 1st sermon. First, investigate the meanings of the words and then test the teaching. Surely, we can verify attachment to the five aggregates is suffering (1st noble truth) and that this suffering arises from craving & ego-becoming (2nd noble truth); and this suffering ends when that craving, attachment & ego-becoming is abandoned. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Nicolas
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by Nicolas » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:45 am

A starting point:
The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts by Bhikkhu Sujato and Bhikkhu Brahmali

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DooDoot
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:46 am

Nicolas wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:45 am
A starting point:
The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts by Bhikkhu Sujato and Bhikkhu Brahmali
A never ending starting point to very long journey to who knows where.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Kurt
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by Kurt » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:40 pm

@DootDoot: You write you are versed in Pali. How do you know, after 2500 years that it is the same Pali or whatever the language was, you are reading nowadays? Further you are claiming to be so wise, so you approve the scriptures. So you mastered the Abhidhamma or other difficult scriptures in Pali the way you explained? People tell, it is hardly to understand-I never read it. So people like me will not grasp the gist. Your are an asset here and I would be happy to read how you managed such a challenge.

santa100
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by santa100 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:59 pm

Kurt wrote:What is the use of reading the scriptures, if their originality is unsure? Or is it sure and what I am writing here is foolish?
It's like learning martial arts. How do you know all the moves and tecniques are reliable? Well, you test it out inside the ring. If you're still standing on your own 2 feet after duking it out then you can get to your conclusion. Now one doesn't step inside the ring to test the scriptures, one steps outside to real life to test it. And there's no shortage of opportunities out there for you to test.
AN 8.53 wrote:As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

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cappuccino
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:00 pm

Be stupid enough to have faith and smart enough to understand.

This is wisdom.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:27 pm

Kurt wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:40 pm
@DootDoot: You write you are versed in Pali. How do you know, after 2500 years that it is the same Pali or whatever the language was, you are reading nowadays? Further you are claiming to be so wise, so you approve the scriptures. So you mastered the Abhidhamma or other difficult scriptures in Pali the way you explained? People tell, it is hardly to understand-I never read it. So people like me will not grasp the gist. ...
As I said -
Kim OHara wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:01 am
Start here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3167
And if can't, or don't want to, get to grips with the very well documented history of the scriptures, do as others have suggested - try following them and see what happens.

:reading:
Kim

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DooDoot
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Re: Authenticity of Scriptures?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:22 am

Kurt wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:40 pm
Your are an asset here and I would be happy to read how you managed such a challenge.
I recall i placed the onus of the challenge onto your good self. Since you are the doubter, it is your duty to verify the teachings and not mine. It is your duty to verify when there is suffering; this suffering is caused by craving, attachment & ego-becoming. Surely, this is not too difficult. Or do you believe "suffering" does not even exist; similar to how many assert "God" does not exist? Kind regards :smile:
Kurt wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:40 pm
How do you know, after 2500 years that it is the same Pali or whatever the language was, you are reading nowadays? Further you are claiming to be so wise, so you approve the scriptures.
How do you know, after 2500 years that it is not the same Pali or whatever the language was, you are reading nowadays? Further you are claiming to be so wise, so you disapprove the scriptures. :smile:
Kurt wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:40 pm
So you mastered the Abhidhamma or other difficult scriptures in Pali the way you explained? People tell, it is hardly to understand-I never read it. So people like me will not grasp the gist.
Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's teaching and was created hundreds of years after the Buddha. It is not necessary to even read it. Further, your reference to Abhidhamma is illogical since it was obviously written at a different time than to when the Buddha spoke. Also, since you claim ignorance about the teachings in general, how can you be in a position to assert Abhidhamma is something to be "mastered" (rather than merely something to be ignored or even disposed of in a rubbish dump)? Please try to stay on the very topic you created and avoid illogical deviations. Thanks. Kind regards. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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