How does the exterior is suffering?

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SarathW
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How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:26 pm

How does the exterior is suffering?

In this Sutta series from SN35.140 it says the following.

Eye etc and its objects are impermanence, notself, and suffering.
I understand all except that eye etc and its objects are suffering.
For instance, if my eye arises as a result of a physical object, how the physical object is suffering?

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.144/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sam Vara
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:40 pm

Might "unsatisfactory" be a better translation of Dukkha here?

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Antaradhana
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:59 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:26 pm
I understand all except that eye etc and its objects are suffering.
This means: they cause suffering. When something is visible, audible, etc. causes unpleasant feelings.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

SarathW
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:03 am

Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:59 pm
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:26 pm
I understand all except that eye etc and its objects are suffering.
This means: they cause suffering. When something is visible, audible, etc. causes unpleasant feelings.
According to this Sutta mind and the mind objects are also suffering!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:36 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:03 am
Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:59 pm
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:26 pm
I understand all except that eye etc and its objects are suffering.
This means: they cause suffering. When something is visible, audible, etc. causes unpleasant feelings.
According to this Sutta mind and the mind objects are also suffering!
It is extremely clear that suffering is caused with our mind and vingnana. The objects in question to suffering other than the mind are exterior. Say Rupa ( exterior) contacts the eye or ear etc. and contacts our sense impressions when it cognites with vingnana forming a thought. It is this thought that creates suffering and it is not our physical ear nor eys or else the object (rupa) of contact.

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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:25 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:40 pm
Might "unsatisfactory" be a better translation of Dukkha here?
Yes. For example ice-cream is unsatisfactory, because it melts, and can make you fat when consumed regularly. :D
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:28 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:25 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:40 pm
Might "unsatisfactory" be a better translation of Dukkha here?
Yes. For example ice-cream is unsatisfactory, because it melts, and can make you fat when consumed regularly. :D
Agree.
This is point I am trying to make in this post.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dinsdale
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:03 am
Antaradhana wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:59 pm
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:26 pm
I understand all except that eye etc and its objects are suffering.
This means: they cause suffering. When something is visible, audible, etc. causes unpleasant feelings.
According to this Sutta mind and the mind objects are also suffering!
I think it's just saying that experience is unsatisfactory. The "meeting of the three", ie sense-base, sense-object and sense-consciousness.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

pegembara
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by pegembara » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:20 am

:goodpost:
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...

"The nose is burning, odors are burning...

"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...

"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
When does dukkha cease?
Liberated from what?
"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the eye, finds estrangement in forms, finds estrangement in eye-consciousness, finds estrangement in eye-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful- nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"He finds estrangement in the ear... in sounds...

"He finds estrangement in the nose... in odors...

"He finds estrangement in the tongue... in flavors...

"He finds estrangement in the body... in tangibles...

"He finds estrangement in the mind, finds estrangement in ideas, finds estrangement in mind-consciousness, finds estrangement in mind-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"
Touch and go. Non-stickiness. Teflon 'consciousness"
In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
Where water, earth,
fire, & wind
have no footing:
There the stars don't shine,
the sun isn't visible.
There the moon doesn't appear.
There darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has realized [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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DooDoot
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:48 pm

Dukkha has a different meaning thus requires a different translation in the following contexts:

1. Vedana (arising from contact)

2. Four noble truths/dependent origination

3. Three characteristics

Buddhism 101
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Srilankaputra
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:03 am

Perhaps a slight change to the question,

Why should the exterior be seen as suffering?
or
Why has the Blessed One declared the exterior as suffering?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

SarathW
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Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:14 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:03 am
Perhaps a slight change to the question,

Why should the exterior be seen as suffering?
or
Why has the Blessed One declared the exterior as suffering?
Perhaps change the question.


Why should the exterior be seen as Dukkha?
or
Why has the Blessed One declared the exterior as Dukkha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Srilankaputra
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:33 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:14 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:03 am
Perhaps a slight change to the question,

Why should the exterior be seen as suffering?
or
Why has the Blessed One declared the exterior as suffering?
Perhaps change the question.


Why should the exterior be seen as Dukkha?
or
Why has the Blessed One declared the exterior as Dukkha?

Perhaps change the question.


Why should the exterior be seen as a mass of fire?
or
Why has the Blessed One declared the exterior as a mass of fire?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Srilankaputra
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: How does the exterior is suffering?

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:35 am

Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Gaya, at Gayasisa, together with a thousand bhikkhus. There he addressed the bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...

"The nose is burning, odors are burning...

"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...

"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the eye, finds estrangement in forms, finds estrangement in eye-consciousness, finds estrangement in eye-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful- nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"He finds estrangement in the ear... in sounds...

"He finds estrangement in the nose... in odors...

"He finds estrangement in the tongue... in flavors...

"He finds estrangement in the body... in tangibles...

"He finds estrangement in the mind, finds estrangement in ideas, finds estrangement in mind-consciousness, finds estrangement in mind-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were glad, and they approved his words.

Now during his utterance, the hearts of those thousand bhikkhus were liberated from taints through clinging no more.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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