the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:42 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:53 am
The argument used about "beings" is a :redherring: since the word is used in the conventional sense here, meaning living creatures. This is clear from the references to "classes of beings", which means humans, animals, etc.
Dependent Origination appears not 'Conventional Truth'. Try to not misrepresent the Blessed One. Hiri-Ottappa is useful. :smile:
Now, the Blessed One has said, "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising.

MN 28
Now what is dependent co-arising? From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death.

SN 12.20
In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Since in his search for Enlightenment, Gotama/Buddha found Dependent Origination, how could such Enlightenment rely on 'Conventional Truth'?? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:40 am

dependent arising becomes irrelevant in a single life model

since it would cease upon death, at least in theory

but if you speak of many lives, then it keeps arising, this is the trouble

but it can cease after so long, this is the hope

Dinsdale
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:34 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:40 am
dependent arising becomes irrelevant in a single life model
...
since it would cease upon death, at least in theory
Not necessarily, though the presence of the birth nidana is potentially problematic for single-life interpretations.
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Dinsdale
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:08 pm

Just our of curiosity I did a search on Sutta Central for "rebirth":

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Rebirth

Quite a lot of results!

And for the purpose of comparison, here are the results for a search on "birth":

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Birth
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:04 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:34 am
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:40 am
dependent arising becomes irrelevant in a single life model
...
since it would cease upon death, at least in theory
Not necessarily
it keeps arising, this is the trouble

Dinsdale
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:55 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:04 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:34 am
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:40 am
dependent arising becomes irrelevant in a single life model
...
since it would cease upon death, at least in theory
Not necessarily
it keeps arising, this is the trouble
Yes it does, but there are different interpretations of the timescale involved. I was observing that the presence of the birth nidana could be problematic for single-life interpretations of DO, where it looks pretty much redundant. It's been and gone, we don't remember it, and it doesn't seem obviously related to suffering in the present. Its easy to see why the thought of old age and death would be a source of present suffering, but this is less clear in the case of birth. I suppose there could be regrets about the circumstances of one's birth, like wishing one had been born into a happier or wealthier family, or whatever, but it seems a bit tenuous.
These problems don't arise for multiple-life interpretations of DO, where birth straightforwardly leads to old age and death.

Anyway, as is clear from my Sutta Central searches above, there is loads of stuff about rebirth in the suttas, like it or not. It's easy enough to just set this stuff to one side if one doesn't find it relevant or useful. What I don't get is the lengths some people go to in their attempts to dismiss or deny all the references to rebirth in the Sutta. This response indicates aversion rather than objectivity.
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bridif1
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by bridif1 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:38 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:40 am
dependent arising becomes irrelevant in a single life model
Hi Cappuccino!

In my opinion, DO is relevant if we understand it as the explanation about how suffering arises. I'm not saying, though, that it is only limited to that, but it certainly has helped me to understand the condition which give rise to dukkha. In this context, jati and jaramarana are the processes of arising and decaying of the attached state of mind, which came to be because of the habit of grasping to sensations, both pleasent and unpleasent, thanks to the tendency/condition of ignorance present in the mind.

Kind regards!

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:24 am

dying
won't
solve
suffering

this is the heart of the matter

auto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:40 pm

https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato

rebirth is realm specific,
‘Rebirth is a condition for old age and death’—that’s what I said. And this is a way to understand how this is so.
‘Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ.

Suppose there were totally and utterly no rebirth for anyone anywhere.
Jāti ca hi, ānanda, nābhavissa sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ kassaci kimhici, seyyathidaṃ—

That is, there were no rebirth of sentient beings into their various realms—of gods, fairies, spirits, creatures, humans, quadrupeds, birds, or reptiles, each into their own realm. When there’s no rebirth at all, with the cessation of rebirth, would old age and death still be found?”
devānaṃ vā devattāya, gandhabbānaṃ vā gandhabbattāya, yakkhānaṃ vā yakkhattāya, bhūtānaṃ vā bhūtattāya, manussānaṃ vā manussattāya, catuppadānaṃ vā catuppadattāya, pakkhīnaṃ vā pakkhittāya, sarīsapānaṃ vā sarīsapattāya, tesaṃ tesañca hi, ānanda, sattānaṃ tadattāya jāti nābhavissa. Sabbaso jātiyā asati jātinirodhā api nu kho jarāmaraṇaṃ paññāyethā”ti?

“No, sir.” “No hetaṃ, bhante”.

“That’s why this is the cause, source, origin, and condition of old age and death, namely rebirth. “Tasmātihānanda, eseva hetu etaṃ nidānaṃ esa samudayo esa paccayo jarāmaraṇassa, yadidaṃ jāti.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:23 am

bridif1 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:38 am
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:40 am
dependent arising becomes irrelevant in a single life model
Hi Cappuccino!

In my opinion, DO is relevant if we understand it as the explanation about how suffering arises. I'm not saying, though, that it is only limited to that, but it certainly has helped me to understand the condition which give rise to dukkha. In this context, jati and jaramarana are the processes of arising and decaying of the attached state of mind, which came to be because of the habit of grasping to sensations, both pleasent and unpleasent, thanks to the tendency/condition of ignorance present in the mind.

Kind regards!
So how does a state of mind get wrinkled skin, greyness of hair and bokeness of teeth? :shrug:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi

States of mind change moment to moment. Bodily aging takes place over decades. See for example paragraphs 4 and 5 in SN12.61:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato
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bridif1
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by bridif1 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:51 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:23 am
So how does a state of mind get wrinkled skin, greyness of hair and bokeness of teeth? :shrug:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi

States of mind change moment to moment. Bodily aging takes place over decades. See for example paragraphs 4 and 5 in SN12.61:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato
Hi Dinsdale!

In the sutta, I interpret the events listed as examples of things/phenomena decaying and ceasing, due to the cease of their conditions that allowed such phenomena to exist.

In this sense, DO might tell us how the decaying-ending of some condition leads to insatisfaction and suffering.

I insist: I'm not saying this is the ONE true interpretation, but I'm only telling you that by seeing DO in this fashion, I've learned to pay attention and to be aware of the moments and conditions that lead to dukkha, in my daily life.

Kind regards!

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:57 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:23 am
So how does a state of mind get wrinkled skin, greyness of hair and bokeness of teeth?
Simple. Identifying with it. The definition of "aging" in SN 12.2 is not "wrinkled skin, greyness of hair and brokeness of teeth of the physical body".
white hair depression, could use some support

I'll admit to everyone that I'm obsessed with the fact that I have white hairs. I can't accept it. I used to pull, cut, and now henna them. My biggest two problems are 1) because my hair is almost black, even with the henna the new regrowth shows within a week. Its just a tiny bit, but against the black, it's evident. 2) I keep getting more. My biggest fear and sadness is that like every month I find another, new tiny one, and I am scared that by the age of 35 (i'm 30 now) I'll have a full head of white hair. I love my hair color, and with henna I can't get it back and I don't want to use chemical dyes. I stress a lot, lots of anxiety, which is probably the cause, but these white hairs just add to it. Has anyone else ever found that they get one by one, like every month, but does it ever stop for a while?? If I could just have a little reassurance that this doesn't mean I'm going to keep on getting moer and more every month, it would help me out. I get used to having 10m then 11, then 12, etc. and I start imagining myself with tons and I get anxiety. Don't mean to sound very vane, but I didn't expect this to happen and continue at such a young age, as my parents/brothers/sisters didn't go very white until 40's.

https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/sh ... hp?t=73692
I found my first gray hair a few months ago. It kind of freaked me out. I knew it would happen some day. I just didn’t think it would happen one day when I am 32 years old.

I know, I know. Some people start going gray much earlier than that. Heck, my mom started going gray in her 20s and colored her hair for a good 30 years before she let it go gray. Now she has gorgeous sliver hair. My dad started going gray in is 30s, I think. I don’t remember. But he’s going to be 59 this year and he’s still not completely gray. And he’s not really salt-n-pepper either because his hair is a light, mousey brown. The same color as mine.

Which is why I am freaking out about the gray hair :weep: : how do I know if I will have my mom’s gray hair or my dad’s gray hair?

https://www.jannamarlies.com/2012/04/20 ... -about-it/
When I was in middle and high school, I was insecure about the rate at which my hair was turning gray. I looked different from my peers and didn’t want to stand out, and was terrified that I’d reach key life events, like getting married, and be fully gray. I’ve considered coloring, but as I’ve gotten older and grown into my hair more, I’ve realized that this is what I am supposed to look like. This gray is part of me, and I shouldn’t try to cover it up. I get compliments from strangers every day, whether I’m at the pharmacy or running around my neighborhood, and I can’t tell you how much they make me smile.

When gray hairs showed up in my twenties, I wasn’t happy. I dyed it blonde for years. Then at 40, I cut my hair really short and had to color it every four weeks — there is no hiding gray roots when the length of your hair isn’t much longer than the roots themselves! In my mid 40s, I finally let it go to see how white it was, but didn’t feel ready to fully embrace it until I turned 50.

https://cupofjo.com/2018/09/four-women- ... nt-page-1/
Obsessing Over Wrinkles? Depressed About Aging?
5 questions to help you re-focus on what really matters.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog ... bout-aging
Sad woman looking at face reflection and crying, unhappy with wrinkled skin — Video by motortion
https://depositphotos.com/171725720/sto ... -face.html
Attachments
wrinkled skin.jpg
GREY HAIR.png
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Dinsdale
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:57 am

bridif1 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:51 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:23 am
So how does a state of mind get wrinkled skin, greyness of hair and bokeness of teeth? :shrug:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi

States of mind change moment to moment. Bodily aging takes place over decades. See for example paragraphs 4 and 5 in SN12.61:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato
Hi Dinsdale!

In the sutta, I interpret the events listed as examples of things/phenomena decaying and ceasing, due to the cease of their conditions that allowed such phenomena to exist.

In this sense, DO might tell us how the decaying-ending of some condition leads to insatisfaction and suffering.

I insist: I'm not saying this is the ONE true interpretation, but I'm only telling you that by seeing DO in this fashion, I've learned to pay attention and to be aware of the moments and conditions that lead to dukkha, in my daily life.

Kind regards!
OK, but these descriptions do look very specific.

To me the point is about how we react to the inevitable process of bodily aging, and it appears that resistance or aversion leads to mental anguish. Like the second arrow in the Arrow Sutta.
But to understand this it's important to recognise that there are two arrows, one physical and and one mental.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:00 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:57 am
how we react to the inevitable process of bodily aging, and it appears that resistance or aversion leads to mental anguish. Like the second arrow in the Arrow Sutta.
Sounds like the 12 link; something mental. :anjali: :bow:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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nituardistf
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by nituardistf » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:13 pm

i disagree. if one has not attained stream entry, why bother talking about arahantship?

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