Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:59 am

A question for you, DooDoot.

What do you feed on? Pork-fried-rice? After you feed on Pork-fried-rice, do you radiate Pork-fried-rice?

The Radiant Gods feed on rapture. There is nothing said about them “radiating” rapture.

You are confusing the nature of infinity. Any Being can radiate consciousness or space. They can radiate loving-kindness as a modified form of consciousness and the same is true of the other Brahmā viharas.

The form kasinas are boundless. When you enter into the earth kasina, the water ... the fire ... the air kasina; then you enter into a boundless state.

That is why it is impossible to define “the range” of one in jhana.

Simply being in a kasina does not mean you radiate pleasure or rapture. You are a part of the boundless infinity of that totality. But whether or not you are a part of it, it will radiate. It is the nature of a boundless totality to radiate in all directions.

Rupa jhana = form jhana
Form = the four great existants
The four great existants = boundless earth; water; fire; and wind
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5768
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:00 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
“Probably”? On whose authority? For what reason?... Quite clearly, there is intention involved in Jhana. So, yes - there is a “doing” here.
That is why I suspect it is fake. Plus it very subtly conflicts with MN 118.
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
Even “letting go” is a “doing” of sorts.
Yes. Letting go is a sort of doing. But it is a different type of doing than the doing you appear to have described. However, importantly, this "letting go doing" I imagine has ceased to occur in a significant way when the 1st jhana is consummated. Yet MN 119 appears to say the meditator continues to "cultivate" or "knead" during the 1st jhana. I imagine, in the 1st jhana, the only "letting go" occurring is merely avoiding any attachment to the bliss. Thus it is "maintaining" the bliss rather than cultivating the bliss.

Ajahn Brahm appears to cling to MN 119 as being Words of the Buddha and, imo, by doing so, Ajahn Brahm, to me, starts to contradict both the sutta and his own teachings about jhana:
Ajahn Brahm wrote:The Buddha's simile for the First Jhana was a ball of clay (used as soap) with just the right amount of moisture, neither too dry nor leaking out. The ball of clay stands for the unified mind, wherein mindfulness has been restricted to the very small areas created by the "wobble." The moisture stands for the bliss caused by total seclusion from the world of the fives senses. The moisture pervading the clay ball completely indicates the bliss thoroughly pervading the space and duration of the mental experience. This is later recognized as bliss followed by bliss, and then more bliss, without interruption. The moisture not leaking out describes the bliss always being contained in the space generated by the wobble, never leaking out of this area of mind space into the world of the five senses, as long as the Jhana persists.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
:alien:
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
I let go of one thing and hold onto the other. I release rapture and pleasure into my body and make it my theme. For as long as I hold onto my theme, my body remains steeped in rapture and pleasure.
Sounds similar to masturbation.
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
You hold on to this reference of “letting go”. Why? Of course final gnosis is only attained by letting go; but do you know of what? What do we let go of in final gnosis?
The suttas say jhana is reached by letting go. To quote:
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
The Buddha teaches ten universal themes of meditation. These are meant to be held on to and developed.
It appears the above is referring to AN 10.60, where nine themes (saññā), most of which use paṭisañcikkhati (thought reflection), appear to be preliminary practises (rather than direct seeing).
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
When you meditate; What is your theme, DooDoot?
Destruction of wrong views & clingers. :smile:
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:59 am
kasinas
What is a kasina?
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:59 am
Rupa jhana = form jhana
Form = the four great existants
The four great existants = boundless earth; water; fire; and wind
Rupa jhana has a foundation of bodily bliss, i.e., pleasant feelings arising dependent upon the body; which occurs when the body & breathing are calmed. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:00 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
“Probably”? On whose authority? For what reason?... Quite clearly, there is intention involved in Jhana. So, yes - there is a “doing” here.
That is why I suspect it is fake. Plus it very subtly conflicts with MN 118.
How clever of them to put the fake one right after the authentic one, right?
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
Even “letting go” is a “doing” of sorts.
Yes. Letting go is a sort of doing. But it is a different type of doing than the doing you appear to have described. However, importantly, this "letting go doing" I imagine has ceased to occur when the 1st jhana is consummated. Yet MN 119 appears to say the meditator continues to "cultivate" or "knead" during the 1st jhana.
You’re referring to the themeless concentration. Like, well done. You’ve identified the highest theme and the one which most directly leads to Nibbana.

By equating the themeless concentration with say, the earth kasina concentration (or any of the ten universal concentrations) you are failing to account for the fact that jhana has nine successive stages.

Again. Well done on finding the themeless concentration. Poor score on your investigation of all other themes (32 according to the Abhidhamma).
Ajahn Brahm appears to cling to MN 119 as being Words of the Buddha and, imo, by doing so, Ajahn Brahm, to me, starts to contradict both the sutta and his own teachings about jhana:
Ajahn Brahm wrote:The Buddha's simile for the First Jhana was a ball of clay (used as soap) with just the right amount of moisture, neither too dry nor leaking out. The ball of clay stands for the unified mind, wherein mindfulness has been restricted to the very small areas created by the "wobble." The moisture stands for the bliss caused by total seclusion from the world of the fives senses. The moisture pervading the clay ball completely indicates the bliss thoroughly pervading the space and duration of the mental experience. This is later recognized as bliss followed by bliss, and then more bliss, without interruption. The moisture not leaking out describes the bliss always being contained in the space generated by the wobble, never leaking out of this area of mind space into the world of the five senses, as long as the Jhana persists.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
The simile speaks for itself and is one of the very few insights we get in the baskets about the nature of jhana.

It indicates intention, volition and experience.

Are you an adherent to Abhidhamma description of jhana, or what? Pork fried rice!

:alien:
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
I let go of one thing and hold onto the other. I release rapture and pleasure into my body and make it my theme. For as long as I hold onto my theme, my body remains steeped in rapture and pleasure.
Sounds similar to masturbation.
It also smells, feels, and tastes like masturbation.

As a side note: orgasms occur when great amounts of soma are released from the root chakra. This can be achieved with or without stimulation to the penis.

However, relaxation of the root chakra also fulfills the purpose of urinating, defecating, and achieving mental serenity. If you had discernment you would know this.
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
You hold on to this reference of “letting go”. Why? Of course final gnosis is only attained by letting go; but do you know of what? What do we let go of in final gnosis?
The suttas say jhana is reached by letting go. To quote:
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“Letting go” can refer to many things. Letting go of tension in a chakra; in the heart; at the source of defilement; etcetera.

It can also refer to the “themeless” concentration which leads directly to Nibbana.
:candle:
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
The Buddha teaches ten universal themes of meditation. These are meant to be held on to and developed.
It appears the above is referring to AN 10.60, where nine themes (saññā), most of which use paṭisañcikkhati (thought reflection), appear to be preliminary practises (rather than direct seeing).
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am
When you meditate; What is your theme, DooDoot?
Destruction of wrong views & clingers. :smile:
Perhaps you should let go of The defilements instead?
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:59 am
kasinas
What is a kasina?
Literally, a “totality”. For example the earth totality exists in boundless space. Ie. it is everywhere. How do you not know this?
Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:59 am
Rupa jhana = form jhana
Form = the four great existants
The four great existants = boundless earth; water; fire; and wind
Rupa jhana has a foundation of bodily bliss, i.e., pleasant feelings arising dependent upon the body; which occurs when the body & breathing are calmed. :smile:
Nice try. But wrong. One must specifically target areas of the body that release rapture and pleasure factors. Some of these targets are the bodily origins of the defilements; the chakras; the three temporal spheres; and the heart.

The body is composed of earth, water, fire, and wind. Rapture and pleasure are found when one subsumes the body in said compositions. That is NOT achieved by breathing in and out. That is achieved by discernment, and right mindfulness. That is achieved by mentally letting go of the conscious clinging to chakras and the heart faculties.

Now tell me what you ate for dinner? I want you to radiate it all the way from the UK to Canada. I can already smell it. By the smell of it you’ve been eating fish and chips.

As always, all hail to Guru DooDoot - the One who Radiates that which He has Eaten :bow:
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5768
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:27 am

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
How clever of them to put the fake one right after the authentic one, right?
Reasonable point. MN 119 is a sutta of lists. It is useful because it offers extras to Anapanasati but it doesn't explain how to practise, as the Anapansati Sutta does. The Anapanasati says all Factors of Enlightenment mature with the quality of letting go. That is why Anapanasati Sutta is genuine. Many other aspects of MN 118 make it genuine (contrary to MN 119, which is just a list).
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
You’re referring to the themeless concentration. Like, well done. You’ve identified the highest theme and the one which most directly leads to Nibbana.
No. I am not referring to themeless meditation.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
By equating the themeless concentration with say, the earth kasina concentration
No. Not kasina, whatever that it.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
(or any of the ten universal concentrations) you are failing to account for the fact that jhana has nine successive stages.
What are you talking about? :shrug:
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
Poor score on your investigation of all other themes (32 according to the Abhidhamma).
I already posted the other themes are mostly preliminary to Anapanasati.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
The simile speaks for itself and is one of the very few insights we get in the baskets about the nature of jhana.
Hollow words.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
It indicates intention, volition and experience.
Even Ajahn Brahm says there is no significant intention in jhana.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
It also smells, feels, and tastes like masturbation.
Which is probably why it is not jhana.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
As a side note: orgasms occur when great amounts of soma are released from the root chakra. This can be achieved with or without stimulation to the penis.
Lol. Orgasmic Jhana Masters. :tongue:
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
However, relaxation of the root chakra also fulfills the purpose of urinating, defecating, and achieving mental serenity. If you had discernment you would know this.
But it was you and not me that said "rupa jhana" is not related to "relaxation of root chakra" or "nervous system".
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
“Letting go” can refer to many things. Letting go of tension in a chakra; in the heart; at the source of defilement; etcetera.
Yes. And so?
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
Perhaps you should let go of The defilements instead?
No. On DW, my meditation is destruction of clingers.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
Literally, a “totality”. For example the earth totality exists in boundless space. Ie. it is everywhere. How do you not know this?
Who cares about kasina!
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
Nice try. But wrong. One must specifically target areas of the body that release rapture and pleasure factors. Some of these targets are the bodily origins of the defilements; the chakras; the three temporal spheres; and the heart.
You are contradicting your former posts thus appear to have incurred a "defeat" in debate. :strawman:
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
The body is composed of earth, water, fire, and wind. Rapture and pleasure are found when one subsumes the body in said compositions. That is NOT achieved by breathing in and out. That is achieved by discernment, and right mindfulness. That is achieved by mentally letting go of the conscious clinging to chakras and the heart faculties.
No. MN 118 says calming breathing (kaya sankhara) leads to rapture. "Chakra" is Hinduism.

:guns: :focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:00 am

Shit. Point for point. I hate these. It’s passed mindnight where I am. Anyway. Here we go. All hail DooDoot
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:27 am
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
How clever of them to put the fake one right after the authentic one, right?
Reasonable point. MN 119 is a sutta of lists. It is useful because it offers extras to Anapanasati but it doesn't explain how to practise, as the Anapansati Sutta does. The Anapanasati says all Factors of Enlightenment mature with the quality of letting go. That is why Anapanasati Sutta is genuine. Many other aspects of MN 118 make it genuine (contrary to MN 119, which is just a list).
Fair enough. A few questions.

What is the sign of anapanasati? What is the theme? What part of the body does one concentrate on?
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
You’re referring to the themeless concentration. Like, well done. You’ve identified the highest theme and the one which most directly leads to Nibbana.
No. I am not referring to themeless meditation.
What theme are you referring to?
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
By equating the themeless concentration with say, the earth kasina concentration
No. Not kasina, whatever that it.
Seriously? Look at this guy. Doesn’t know what a “kasina” is? 8-)
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
(or any of the ten universal concentrations) you are failing to account for the fact that jhana has nine successive stages.
What are you talking about? :shrug:
I’m talking about objects of meditation other than the breath or the themeless concentration - like the ten kasinas for example.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
Poor score on your investigation of all other themes (32 according to the Abhidhamma).
I already posted the other themes are mostly preliminary to Anapanasati.
The same results can be achieved using anapanasati and the various kasinas. There are ten universal objects of meditation. They are the white, yellow, blue, and red kasinas. The water, earth, fire and wind kasinas. The space kasina and the consciousness Kasina.

One does not approach infinite consciousness by simply breathing. One does not approach fading or letting go by breathing alone.

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
The simile speaks for itself and is one of the very few insights we get in the baskets about the nature of jhana.
Hollow words.
All hail the one who radiates what he eats. He doesn’t shyt it out after it’s been digested. He radiates it!!! He is a blessed guru.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
It indicates intention, volition and experience.
Even Ajahn Brahm says there is no significant intention in jhana.
Who is Ajahn Brahm? Is he related to Ajahn Sona?
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
It also smells, feels, and tastes like masturbation.
Which is probably why it is not jhana.
Yeah. Big revelation. Try experimenting with your root chakra, DooDoot. You’ve got one chance to get it right. You’re not going to get there by simply breathing.

What makes your breathing better than mine? I breathe too. Do you know what it accomplishes for me. It keeps me living.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
As a side note: orgasms occur when great amounts of soma are released from the root chakra. This can be achieved with or without stimulation to the penis.
Lol. Orgasmic Jhana Masters. :tongue:
Okay. Next time you take a piss or a shyt - try not to relax your sphincter. See how that works for you.

Sexual delight is found in the root chakra. Letting go of sexual attachment is therefore simple for a person with discernment.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
However, relaxation of the root chakra also fulfills the purpose of urinating, defecating, and achieving mental serenity. If you had discernment you would know this.
But it was you and not me that said "rupa jhana" is not related to "relaxation of root chakra" or "nervous system".
I simply asked you what the nervous system was such that it radiates. I strongly believe the whole essence of meditation revolves around the nervous system. I simply don’t think it radiates anything. Ergo, one suffuses the body with rapture and pleasure, and yet it does not drip (ie. it is confined to the nervous system).

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
“Letting go” can refer to many things. Letting go of tension in a chakra; in the heart; at the source of defilement; etcetera.
Yes. And so?
So investigate it! Or just keep breathing and don’t experiment!
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
Perhaps you should let go of The defilements instead?
No. On DW, my meditation is destruction of clingers.
Like when you take a shyt and a little piece of shyt clings to your ass hole and you go to wipe your ass and you spread shit all over the place.

Yeah. I don’t like that either. Keep going :clap:
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
Literally, a “totality”. For example the earth totality exists in boundless space. Ie. it is everywhere. How do you not know this?
Who cares about kasina!
Ha ha. Okay. Okay. Calm down. Never mind kasina. It’s not important. :jumping:
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
Nice try. But wrong. One must specifically target areas of the body that release rapture and pleasure factors. Some of these targets are the bodily origins of the defilements; the chakras; the three temporal spheres; and the heart.
You are contradicting your former posts thus appear to have incurred a "defeat" in debate. :strawman:
That’s weak ass bull shyte right there. You think you can just declare yourself the winner.

Sounds like you agree with me?

I am holding true to my experience. So go take your straw man and ... go put it back in the field.
Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 am
The body is composed of earth, water, fire, and wind. Rapture and pleasure are found when one subsumes the body in said compositions. That is NOT achieved by breathing in and out. That is achieved by discernment, and right mindfulness. That is achieved by mentally letting go of the conscious clinging to chakras and the heart faculties.
No. MN 118 says calming breathing (kaya sankhara) leads to rapture. "Chakra" is Hinduism.

:guns: :focus:
Okay. You don’t know what a kasina is and now you’re teaching me what a chakra is.

You’re out of your league. There are themes for all the kasinas. There are themes for nothingness and Neither perception nor non perception. There are themes for dispassion and there is a theme for letting go.

You have very little discernment. I don’t think you really know what a “theme” is. Correct me if I’m wrong.

In fact you can’t reconcile one sutta with another - to such a degree that the only way two suttas can exist side by side is if one of them is a fraud.

Something smells like fish in here, Guru DooDoot!
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5768
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:01 pm

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:00 am
What is the sign of anapanasati? What is the theme? What part of the body does one concentrate on?
Although I do not exactly know what 'sign' & 'theme' are supposed to mean, given both English words are used as a translation of 'nimitta', my answer to your question is:

(i) the sign of anapanasati is breathing;

(ii) the theme of anapanasati is letting go, non-craving, non-attachment, abandoning of covetousness & distress;

(iii) the mind has many capacities. Mind (mano) concentrates on itself yet consciousness (vinnana) knows breathing when the conditions are right.
Seriously? Look at this guy. Doesn’t know what a “kasina” is? 8-)
MN 118 does not refer to kasina. Nor do most jhana suttas. Nor does the N8FP. I have never met a Buddhist or a monk that practises kasina. I found two suttas (AN 10.29; MN 77) with kasina.
Okay. You don’t know what a kasina is and now you’re teaching me what a chakra is.
Chakra is Hinduism. 'Masturbation Meditation' or 'Yogic Meditation' is Hinduism. It appears the Buddha taught a jhana that is developed by practising the preceding 7 factors of the Noble Path, which are about making the mind wholesome, pure & abandoned (let go). Based on my reading of the suttas, it seems there is never ever any requirement to deliberately direct the mind towards the breathing. I imagine when the mind is quiet, silent, sensitive & still, the mind will automatically know the breathing. Its ironic how Pondera, Pulsar, Budo, etc, keep talking about how 'wisdom' is a requirement for jhana yet they rarely, if ever, regard 'wisdom' as knowledge or experience that results in 'letting go''. :smile:
(4) “Bhikkhus, there are these ten kasiṇa bases. What ten? One person perceives the earth kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. One person perceives the water kasiṇa … the fire kasiṇa … the air kasiṇa … the blue kasiṇa … the yellow kasiṇa … the red kasiṇa … the white kasiṇa … the space kasiṇa … the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. These are the ten kasiṇa bases. Of these ten kasiṇa bases, this is the foremost, namely, when one perceives the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless :thumbsup: . There are beings who are percipient in such a way. But even for beings who are percipient in such a way there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior :ugeek: .

https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:25 pm

Dearest DooDoot,

Can one achieve the fourth jhana using anapanasati?
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:43 pm

Your lack of knowledge concerning the Visuddhimagga is disturbing. Any Buddhist enthusiast worth his weight should have a basic knowledge of this text.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasina

Educate yourself
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5768
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:39 pm

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:43 pm
Your lack of knowledge concerning the Visuddhimagga is disturbing. Any Buddhist enthusiast worth his weight should have a basic knowledge of this text.
Visuddhimagga is heavy censured by many Buddhists. Visuddhimagga is the classic text of (Hindu) Yogic interpretations of Anapanasati & Jhana; which is contrary to the Buddha's method of letting go taught in MN 118 and SN 48.10. Try to educate yourself about The Buddha vs Buddhaghosa. Its old news.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5768
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:03 pm

Pondera wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:25 pm

Can one achieve the fourth jhana using anapanasati?
The concentration developed using anapanasati would be the same concentration or momentum used to reach jhana. But the anapanasati sutta appears not about jhana because the suttas do not describe awareness of breathing in jhana.

The anapanasati sutta demonstrates there is a lower level of concentration sufficient for the arising of rapture. This also shows how the common overestimations of ‘jhana’ by clingers can occur.

Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Zom » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:27 pm

Good question. The answer is in archaic parts of textual Dhamma. Rupa definitely is connected with the Rupa-Realm which is quite interesting and unique (to ancient indian cosmology). In MN 127 Buddha says that in his jhanic practice he sees light and rupas. And in some other sutta from AN he identifies these "rupas" with deities he sees. In MN 49 where he speaks with Brahma he also mentions rupa-realms as "bodies", which is again, interesting. From MN 60 we also know that rupa-loka is the place of those deities, whose bodies are "made from mind". Here, again, go the names of some rupaloka realms like "Deities of Beauty" (subhakina) or "Deities of Light (or - luminosity)" (abhassara). Both terms are connected with jhana and mind. All these are pieces of one archaic puzzle, which Commentary is unable to solve. I guess Buddha would have given very interesting explanation if had been asked about all this .)

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16972
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:27 pm

Thanks Zom. Perhaps this is helpful:
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html

Though Zom gives some good insights into the genesis of the term in early texts, it appears that the term only gains prominence in later texts:
https://suttacentral.net/search?query=rupavacara

The suttas refer to "first jhana" (paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ), etc. for the four jhanas, and "dimension of infinite space" (ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ), etc, for the other attainments. The rupa/arupa jhana terminology seems to have come later.
See, for example: https://suttacentral.net/an9.31/en/sujato for the list.

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Zom » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:37 pm

The rupa/arupa jhana terminology seems to have come later.
Yes, the very term is commentarial, I think (I don't recall a place in a sutta where it is used). Though it directly points to certain suttas (as AN 4.123) that correlate 1/2/3/4 jhanas with particular rupa-loka realms.

SarathW
Posts: 12020
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:55 am

Perhaps the beings in Rupaloka realm can't enjoy the fives sense sensuality (Kama).
Perhaps that is how it differs from Kamaloka.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:57 am

Perhaps that is how it differs from Kamaloka.
I think the difference is much more than that .) Brahmas are literally cosmic beings, they dwell in jhanic states, and those themselves are called "unthinkables" - that is, you can't imagine and understand that kind of dwelling, unless you realise it yourself.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 35 guests