Staying 5 years with your teacher after ordained. Where does this come from?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Chanh Dao
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Staying 5 years with your teacher after ordained. Where does this come from?

Post by Chanh Dao » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:47 pm

I've been looking into this regarding the vinaya but have not come across anything stating this. But I've heard it from many monks this staying at the same Temple for 5 years after ordaining but I have been totally unable to find anything like that in the patimokkha.

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Volo
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Re: Staying 5 years with your teacher after ordained. Where does this come from?

Post by Volo » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:55 pm

Five years only if the monk becomes competent, but if he doesn't manage to learn everything he is supposed to know, then it should be extended up to the whole life (see bellow).

At the beginning it was 10 years:
Kd.1.32.1 Now at that time monks, when their preceptors had gone away and had left the Order and had died and had gone over to another side (of the Order),390 being without BD.4.79 teachers,391 not being exhorted, not being instructed, walked for almsfood wrongly dressed, wrongly clothed, not befittingly attired. While people were eating … = Kd.1.25.1–1.25.4 …

“It is true, Lord.”

Having rebuked them, having given reasoned talk, he addressed the monks, saying: “Monks, I allow a teacher. The teacher, monks, should arouse in his pupil392 the attitude of a son; the pupil should arouse in his teacher the attitude of a father. Thus these, living with reverence, with deference, with courtesy towards one another, will come to growth, increase, maturity in this dhamma and discipline. I allow you, monks, to live ten years in dependence,393 and when one is of ten years’ standing to give guidance.394
But on latter occasion the Buddha changed it to 5 years, since 10 years seemed to be too long, and restricted mobility of the monks too the extend that there was not enough monks to accompany Buddha on his tour:
Kd.1.53.2 Then the Lord addressed the venerable Ānanda, saying: “Go, Ānanda, and taking a key, Vin.1.80 announce to the monks in every cell: “Your reverences, the Lord wishes to set out on tour for Dakkhiṇāgiri. Whatever venerable one needs (to do so), let him come.”

“Yes, Lord,” and the venerable Ānanda, having answered the Lord in assent, taking the key, announced to the monks in every cell: “Your reverences, the Lord wishes to set out on tour for Dakkhiṇāgiri. Whatever venerable one needs (to do so), let him come.”

Kd.1.53.3 Monks spoke thus: “Reverend Ānanda, it is laid down by the Lord (that one is) to live ten years in dependence, and when one is of ten years’ standing (he is) to give guidance.482 If we go there then guidance must be chosen483 (there), but the BD.4.101 stop (there) may be short; then we must come back again and guidance must be chosen again. If our teachers and preceptors are going, we too will go; but if our teachers and preceptors are not going, then we will not go. Reverend Ānanda, we shall (otherwise) look feather-brained.”484

Kd.1.53.4 Then the Lord set out on tour for Dakkhiṇāgiri with an Order of monks numbering less than a group.485

Then the Lord, having stayed in Dakkhiṇāgiri for as long as he found suiting, came back again to Rājagaha. Then the Lord addressed the venerable Ānanda, saying: “How is it, Ānanda, that the Truthfinder set out on tour for Dakkhiṇāgiri with an Order of monks numbering less than a group?” Then the venerable Ānanda told this matter to the Lord. Then the Lord on this occasion, in this connection, having given reasoned talk, addressed the monks, saying:

I allow, monks, an experienced competent monk to live five years in dependence (but) an inexperienced one all his life.

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Staying 5 years with your teacher after ordained. Where does this come from?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:03 pm

The rules are not in the patimokkha or vibhanga, but the khandakas under the going forth section( same place where above quotes come from) I believe off the top of my head.

You are not bound to be under any one specific person, you can leave your original preceptor, or even monastery, and go under another acariya, but you must live with a senior monastic the first five years or else it's a breach of the minor rules. ( I'm currently half way though mine, bhikkhu 2 1/2 years)

In that section the Buddha even gives a period of time for the young monastic to observe a monk before going in dependance on the senior monastic. What I love about this is that the Buddha has built in a system that stops abuse of power by senior monastics, as the junior is free to leave if need be.

Also in that section the Buddha gives guidelines of the duties of junior monastics to seniors, and duties of senior monastics to juniors.

Knowing the vinaya inside and out is of great benefit, on many levels, to a junior monastic, dont just rely on what a senior monastic or tradition tells you, read and know for yourself.
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Re: Staying 5 years with your teacher after ordained. Where does this come from?

Post by DNS » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:43 pm

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:03 pm
You are not bound to be under any one specific person, you can leave your original preceptor, or even monastery, and go under another acariya, but you must live with a senior monastic the first five years or else it's a breach of the minor rules. ( I'm currently half way though mine, bhikkhu 2 1/2 years)
So if a monk (or nun) does not live with a senior monastic for at least five years, it is just a breach of a minor rule and the ordination is still valid?

I think I heard of some monks and nuns who ordained, but did not have a senior monastic available (ordained in one nation and went back to their home country) and did not complete the five years. I assume the ordination is still valid?

I think the rule does make some good sense though. It could prevent some monastics from going rogue (perhaps not the best word), if they are not properly trained.

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Staying 5 years with your teacher after ordained. Where does this come from?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:11 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:43 pm
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:03 pm
You are not bound to be under any one specific person, you can leave your original preceptor, or even monastery, and go under another acariya, but you must live with a senior monastic the first five years or else it's a breach of the minor rules. ( I'm currently half way though mine, bhikkhu 2 1/2 years)
So if a monk (or nun) does not live with a senior monastic for at least five years, it is just a breach of a minor rule and the ordination is still valid?

I think I heard of some monks and nuns who ordained, but did not have a senior monastic available (ordained in one nation and went back to their home country) and did not complete the five years. I assume the ordination is still valid?

I think the rule does make some good sense though. It could prevent some monastics from going rogue (perhaps not the best word), if they are not properly trained.
The dependence rule has no bearing on ordination. The whole “ordination is valid” thing only comes into play when rules are broken in relation to the actual ordination.

I believe it is simply a dukkata that is incurred by the junior monastic, but there is a provisio that if the monk is practicing well in the woods they don’t need to be in dependence, otherwise you should be in dependence.

Of course these days there are added cultural and traditional expectations that may come into play, and it would make sense that monastics would find it questionable if a monastic never had an extended period under senior monastics, to learn the proper protocol and etiquette.
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Chanh Dao
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Re: Staying 5 years with your teacher after ordained. Where does this come from?

Post by Chanh Dao » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:38 am

These responses are absolutely beautiful and helpful. Thank you so much.

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