Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:42 am

budo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:31 am
Usually breath and brahma viharas, usually appreciation works best for me out of all brahma viharas. The other brahma viharas are better for tackling hindrances at deeper levels like fear of dying which can arise at deep absorption levels.

I've had infinite space a few times, although rarely, by following arrowriver monastery's cula sunnata sutta guide.
Obstacles must be completely absent. And their list is not limited to five, in MN 128 there is an extended list of obstacles, which includes fear. There should be no fear in the first jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:21 am

Antaradhana wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:42 am
budo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:31 am
Usually breath and brahma viharas, usually appreciation works best for me out of all brahma viharas. The other brahma viharas are better for tackling hindrances at deeper levels like fear of dying which can arise at deep absorption levels.

I've had infinite space a few times, although rarely, by following arrowriver monastery's cula sunnata sutta guide.
Obstacles must be completely absent. And their list is not limited to five, in MN 128 there is an extended list of obstacles, which includes fear. There should be no fear in the first jhana.
Fear doesn't arise in first jhana, it can arise in 4th jhana when you stop breathing and other nimittas arise.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pondera » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:24 am

Okay. So, by your lack of response I’ll just assume all of those jhana features are accomplished by the theme you take up. Well done! Indeed!!!
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:26 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:24 am
Okay. So, by your lack of response I’ll just assume all of those jhana features are accomplished by the theme you take up. Well done! Indeed!!!
I was in the process of responding to you. Yes I get the jhana factors like piti, sukha, passadhi, etc..

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pondera » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:32 am

That’s good. In the right order I hope. Joy; rapture; serenity; pleasure; concentration?
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:21 am

Dinsdale, to respond to what you wrote
The other problem with jhana is that nobody can agree what it really is - people talk about sutta jhana, commentary jhana, vipassana jhana, etc etc.
Well I tried commentary jhana, as explained in 'Path to Purification' there are many things that helped me
in VSM, but not the jhana explanations, and neither the quietening of the mind as explained
in vipassana jhana, so what is the choice for such a person? Sutta jhana.
Even that was not quite straightforward, but if one investigates, he finds the answers, ie the way to quieten the mind to the level that lead to insight.
Jhana is not a means to gain bliss ultimately
on the way there is rapture, but that rapture has also to be discarded, finally a state where nothing impacts
the mind, just the clarity of the teaching.
The insight gained here, leads to right knowledge, the 9th factor in the Ten-fold path.
You also wrote,
I've also seen an element of snobbery, like "You can't have experienced real jhana", or "Our dry insight method is superior to jhana anyway
I believe this belongs in the category of wrong speech as explained in MN 117. Dear Dinsdale this is my understanding of this whole matter. :candle:

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:57 pm

budo wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:21 am
Fear doesn't arise in first jhana, it can arise in 4th jhana when you stop breathing and other nimittas arise.
It cannot occur in a stable first jhana. Just as other obstacles cannot arise with a stable first jhana, and even more so in the second, third and fourth.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:13 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:57 pm
budo wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:21 am
Fear doesn't arise in first jhana, it can arise in 4th jhana when you stop breathing and other nimittas arise.
It cannot occur in a stable first jhana. Just as other obstacles cannot arise with a stable first jhana, and even more so in the second, third and fourth.
I disagree, an 10.72 shows that thorns allow hindrances to arise, and thorns exist in every Jhana.

There's different types of hindrances, gross hindrances and very subtle hindrances. The deeper you go, the more subtle the hindrances. The hindrances you get at 4th jhana are different than the ones you get in 1st jhana.
"To one who wants seclusion, company is a thorn. To one developing the sign of loathsomeness, an agreeable sign is a thorn. To one protected in the mental faculties, sight seeing is a thorn. To a man leading a celebate life, the behavior of a woman is a torn. To one in the first jhana, sounds are a thorn. To one in the second jhana, thinking and examining are a thorn. To one in the third jhana, piti is a thorn. To one in the fourth jhana, in breathing and out breathing is a thorn. To one attaining the cessation of perceptions and feelings, perceptions and feelings are a thorn. Greed is a thorn. Hate is a thorn and delusion is a thorn.
It's only until one fully eradicates that fetter such as desire or aversion, then that thorn is no longer an issue,

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:24 pm

The five main obstacles + the additional obstacles listed in MN 128 are the obstacles for the first jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:50 am

Antaradhana wrote
obstacles listed in MN 128 are the obstacles for the first jhana.
Thanks for pointing out this sutta. It describes many possible distractions other than the formulaic hindrances to the first jhana.
I imagine the 5 hindrances technically would includes these, or any other obstacle one can think of. But here, a neat list is presented. Another obstacle would be folks who say rupa jhanas are not part of the Noble path, misrepresenting Buddha.
The sutta speaks of Anuruddha, and his two companions Kimbila, and Nandiya as a group struggling with their meditations.
But in the earlier listed
MN 31 Culagosinga Sutta
the same three, Anuruddha, Kimbila, and Nandiya, had all become Arahanats. Go figure, the order of presenting the suttas in Middle Lengths, not so well organized. In MN 31 the rupa jhanas are listed as super human endeavors. Even the second jhana is called so.
an excerpt from MN 31
this is another superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained by surmounting the preceding abiding
Any thoughts on this? Budo, Antaradhana, Pondera
Notice how it is called jhana of the worthy ones, meaning those who attained fruition? What is your take on MN 31?
Perhaps there are other suttas that resort to this wording, are you aware? Thank you for sharing your experiences on jhana. :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:57 am

Antaradhana referring to fear you wrote
It cannot occur in a stable first jhana. Just as other obstacles cannot arise with a stable first jhana, and even more so in the second, third and fourth
What do you mean by stable jhana? do you mean the jhana of the Arahants? :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:37 am

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:50 am

an excerpt from MN 31
this is another superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained by surmounting the preceding abiding
Any thoughts on this? Budo, Antaradhana, Pondera
Notice how it is called jhana of the worthy ones, meaning those who attained fruition? What is your take on MN 31?
Perhaps there are other suttas that resort to this wording, are you aware? Thank you for sharing your experiences on jhana. :candle:
Right View = Supermundane
Jhanas = Supernormal

To attain Nibbana you need Maha-abhiññata - the sixth abhinna (and only one that is supermundane, which means non-buddhists don't have access to it, which means silly rituals don't make you a Buddhist).

Therefore Nibbana requires Supermundane + Supernormal

Non-returners and Arahants have Jhana mastery, they are able to attain the 4 jhanas at will. It means they have made many many passes over jhanas. The Buddha says in Dhamma-viharin Sutta that one should spend the day in Jhanas, and do only some theory (dhamma) studying, so these monks spent most of their waking hours in jhanas. They probably have more than 10,000 hours in jhanas.

A lay person who briefly attained first to fourth jhana will not have the same hindrance free jhana as these masters. A lay person may get stifled when they stop breathing for the first time, or suprised by new nimittas and new experiences. Once a person has thousands of hours in jhanas, then they're no longer surprised by new events arising.

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Re: Jhana

Post by Pulsar » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:25 pm

Thank you dear Budo, you are very kind :candle:

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:27 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:57 am
What do you mean by stable jhana? do you mean the jhana of the Arahants? :candle:
I mean the full entry into the first jhana and stay in it, as opposed to concentrating access, the appearance of nimitta, and then losing this state due to the presence of obstacles in the mind, as written in MN 128.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:46 pm

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:50 am
In MN 31 the rupa jhanas are listed as super human endeavors. Even the second jhana is called so.
Yes, the first jhana is the superhuman state of the being that left the attachments of kama-loka.
this is another superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained by surmounting the preceding abiding
One who attains jhan at will, has no malice and sensual attachment, at least during this life and the next life in the Brahma world (which lasts billions of years). There may be cases of falling away from jhan, but they are extremely rare. If a person who reaches jhan reaches Arya-phala, then he does never not return to kama-loka (AN 4.123).
Notice how it is called jhana of the worthy ones, meaning those who attained fruition?
In order to attain the fruit, one should not just enjoy a pleasant stay in jhana, but also engage in analysis in this state, seeing three characteristics (tilakhana).
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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