Obstacles must be completely absent. And their list is not limited to five, in MN 128 there is an extended list of obstacles, which includes fear. There should be no fear in the first jhana.budo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:31 amUsually breath and brahma viharas, usually appreciation works best for me out of all brahma viharas. The other brahma viharas are better for tackling hindrances at deeper levels like fear of dying which can arise at deep absorption levels.
I've had infinite space a few times, although rarely, by following arrowriver monastery's cula sunnata sutta guide.
Jhana
- Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
Re: Jhana
Fear doesn't arise in first jhana, it can arise in 4th jhana when you stop breathing and other nimittas arise.Antaradhana wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:42 amObstacles must be completely absent. And their list is not limited to five, in MN 128 there is an extended list of obstacles, which includes fear. There should be no fear in the first jhana.budo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:31 amUsually breath and brahma viharas, usually appreciation works best for me out of all brahma viharas. The other brahma viharas are better for tackling hindrances at deeper levels like fear of dying which can arise at deep absorption levels.
I've had infinite space a few times, although rarely, by following arrowriver monastery's cula sunnata sutta guide.
Re: Jhana
Okay. So, by your lack of response I’ll just assume all of those jhana features are accomplished by the theme you take up. Well done! Indeed!!!
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Re: Jhana
Dinsdale, to respond to what you wrote
in VSM, but not the jhana explanations, and neither the quietening of the mind as explained
in vipassana jhana, so what is the choice for such a person? Sutta jhana.
Even that was not quite straightforward, but if one investigates, he finds the answers, ie the way to quieten the mind to the level that lead to insight.
the mind, just the clarity of the teaching.
Well I tried commentary jhana, as explained in 'Path to Purification' there are many things that helped meThe other problem with jhana is that nobody can agree what it really is - people talk about sutta jhana, commentary jhana, vipassana jhana, etc etc.
in VSM, but not the jhana explanations, and neither the quietening of the mind as explained
in vipassana jhana, so what is the choice for such a person? Sutta jhana.
Even that was not quite straightforward, but if one investigates, he finds the answers, ie the way to quieten the mind to the level that lead to insight.
on the way there is rapture, but that rapture has also to be discarded, finally a state where nothing impactsJhana is not a means to gain bliss ultimately
the mind, just the clarity of the teaching.
You also wrote,The insight gained here, leads to right knowledge, the 9th factor in the Ten-fold path.
I believe this belongs in the category of wrong speech as explained in MN 117. Dear Dinsdale this is my understanding of this whole matter.I've also seen an element of snobbery, like "You can't have experienced real jhana", or "Our dry insight method is superior to jhana anyway
- Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana
It cannot occur in a stable first jhana. Just as other obstacles cannot arise with a stable first jhana, and even more so in the second, third and fourth.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
Re: Jhana
I disagree, an 10.72 shows that thorns allow hindrances to arise, and thorns exist in every Jhana.Antaradhana wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:57 pmIt cannot occur in a stable first jhana. Just as other obstacles cannot arise with a stable first jhana, and even more so in the second, third and fourth.
There's different types of hindrances, gross hindrances and very subtle hindrances. The deeper you go, the more subtle the hindrances. The hindrances you get at 4th jhana are different than the ones you get in 1st jhana.
It's only until one fully eradicates that fetter such as desire or aversion, then that thorn is no longer an issue,"To one who wants seclusion, company is a thorn. To one developing the sign of loathsomeness, an agreeable sign is a thorn. To one protected in the mental faculties, sight seeing is a thorn. To a man leading a celebate life, the behavior of a woman is a torn. To one in the first jhana, sounds are a thorn. To one in the second jhana, thinking and examining are a thorn. To one in the third jhana, piti is a thorn. To one in the fourth jhana, in breathing and out breathing is a thorn. To one attaining the cessation of perceptions and feelings, perceptions and feelings are a thorn. Greed is a thorn. Hate is a thorn and delusion is a thorn.
- Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana
The five main obstacles + the additional obstacles listed in MN 128 are the obstacles for the first jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
Re: Jhana
Antaradhana wrote
I imagine the 5 hindrances technically would includes these, or any other obstacle one can think of. But here, a neat list is presented. Another obstacle would be folks who say rupa jhanas are not part of the Noble path, misrepresenting Buddha.
The sutta speaks of Anuruddha, and his two companions Kimbila, and Nandiya as a group struggling with their meditations.
But in the earlier listed
an excerpt from MN 31
Notice how it is called jhana of the worthy ones, meaning those who attained fruition? What is your take on MN 31?
Perhaps there are other suttas that resort to this wording, are you aware? Thank you for sharing your experiences on jhana.
Thanks for pointing out this sutta. It describes many possible distractions other than the formulaic hindrances to the first jhana.obstacles listed in MN 128 are the obstacles for the first jhana.
I imagine the 5 hindrances technically would includes these, or any other obstacle one can think of. But here, a neat list is presented. Another obstacle would be folks who say rupa jhanas are not part of the Noble path, misrepresenting Buddha.
The sutta speaks of Anuruddha, and his two companions Kimbila, and Nandiya as a group struggling with their meditations.
But in the earlier listed
the same three, Anuruddha, Kimbila, and Nandiya, had all become Arahanats. Go figure, the order of presenting the suttas in Middle Lengths, not so well organized. In MN 31 the rupa jhanas are listed as super human endeavors. Even the second jhana is called so.MN 31 Culagosinga Sutta
an excerpt from MN 31
Any thoughts on this? Budo, Antaradhana, Ponderathis is another superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained by surmounting the preceding abiding
Notice how it is called jhana of the worthy ones, meaning those who attained fruition? What is your take on MN 31?
Perhaps there are other suttas that resort to this wording, are you aware? Thank you for sharing your experiences on jhana.
Re: Jhana
Antaradhana referring to fear you wrote
What do you mean by stable jhana? do you mean the jhana of the Arahants?It cannot occur in a stable first jhana. Just as other obstacles cannot arise with a stable first jhana, and even more so in the second, third and fourth
Re: Jhana
Right View = SupermundanePulsar wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:50 am
an excerpt from MN 31Any thoughts on this? Budo, Antaradhana, Ponderathis is another superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained by surmounting the preceding abiding
Notice how it is called jhana of the worthy ones, meaning those who attained fruition? What is your take on MN 31?
Perhaps there are other suttas that resort to this wording, are you aware? Thank you for sharing your experiences on jhana.
Jhanas = Supernormal
To attain Nibbana you need Maha-abhiññata - the sixth abhinna (and only one that is supermundane, which means non-buddhists don't have access to it, which means silly rituals don't make you a Buddhist).
Therefore Nibbana requires Supermundane + Supernormal
Non-returners and Arahants have Jhana mastery, they are able to attain the 4 jhanas at will. It means they have made many many passes over jhanas. The Buddha says in Dhamma-viharin Sutta that one should spend the day in Jhanas, and do only some theory (dhamma) studying, so these monks spent most of their waking hours in jhanas. They probably have more than 10,000 hours in jhanas.
A lay person who briefly attained first to fourth jhana will not have the same hindrance free jhana as these masters. A lay person may get stifled when they stop breathing for the first time, or suprised by new nimittas and new experiences. Once a person has thousands of hours in jhanas, then they're no longer surprised by new events arising.
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Re: Jhana
I mean the full entry into the first jhana and stay in it, as opposed to concentrating access, the appearance of nimitta, and then losing this state due to the presence of obstacles in the mind, as written in MN 128.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
- Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana
Yes, the first jhana is the superhuman state of the being that left the attachments of kama-loka.
One who attains jhan at will, has no malice and sensual attachment, at least during this life and the next life in the Brahma world (which lasts billions of years). There may be cases of falling away from jhan, but they are extremely rare. If a person who reaches jhan reaches Arya-phala, then he does never not return to kama-loka (AN 4.123).this is another superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained by surmounting the preceding abiding
In order to attain the fruit, one should not just enjoy a pleasant stay in jhana, but also engage in analysis in this state, seeing three characteristics (tilakhana).Notice how it is called jhana of the worthy ones, meaning those who attained fruition?
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".