Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Laurens
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Re: Jhana

Post by Laurens » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:11 am

Nwad wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:24 am
I think we think Upacara Samadhi to be Jhana, or Apana Samadhi to be Jhana, but Ajahn Martin said that Some great monks needed 17 years of hard practice in caves to attain Jhanas... Unless you developed it in previous lives, but it seems to me impossible while keeping only 5 precepts and keeping sensual stimulations or work. I can mistake. I used to believe Upacara Samadhi and Spans Samadhi to be Jhana, but I need to confess my misunderstanding of jhana... :strawman:
As an aside are there any good resources for the different kinds of Samadhi you mention?
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:18 am

Laurens wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:11 am
Nwad wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:24 am
I think we think Upacara Samadhi to be Jhana, or Apana Samadhi to be Jhana, but Ajahn Martin said that Some great monks needed 17 years of hard practice in caves to attain Jhanas... Unless you developed it in previous lives, but it seems to me impossible while keeping only 5 precepts and keeping sensual stimulations or work. I can mistake. I used to believe Upacara Samadhi and Spans Samadhi to be Jhana, but I need to confess my misunderstanding of jhana... :strawman:
As an aside are there any good resources for the different kinds of Samadhi you mention?

Thankfully we have the suttas to clarify such matters. Celibacy is required for higher jhanas, but not for, to my knowledge, the first 3 jhanas.

Also thankfully, all you need is the first jhana to see dependent origination and thus attain some form of fruition.

So it is not true that you need to be a super ascetic to attain jhanas.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:31 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:18 am
Thankfully we have the suttas to clarify such matters. Celibacy is required for higher jhanas, but not for, to my knowledge, the first 3 jhanas.
Already for the attainment of the first jhana, it is necessary to leave unwholesome states of mind, such as anger and a desire to cause harm, as well as a thirst for sensual pleasures (and not only sexual desires, but much more). About having sex (behavior at the level of the body), even speech does not go; it is discarded even before the purification begins at the level of the mind. Jhana is the pinnacle of the ascetic path, see MN 39, MN 107, and most importantly MN 125, in which the Buddha says that a person living among sensual pleasures is not able to attain the state of jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:43 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:31 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:18 am
Thankfully we have the suttas to clarify such matters. Celibacy is required for higher jhanas, but not for, to my knowledge, the first 3 jhanas.
Already for the attainment of the first Jhana, it is necessary to leave unwholesome states of mind, such as anger and a desire to cause harm, as well as a thirst for sensual pleasures (and not only sexual desires, but much more). About having sex (behavior at the level of the body), even speech does not go; it is discarded even before the purification begins at the level of the mind.
Wrong.

All once returners have attained some jhana, but not full mastery.

The Buddha said this in regards to lay people who have attained jhanas and once return:
Take a certain person who is unethical. But they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where that unethical conduct ceases without anything left over. And they have listened and learned and comprehended theoretically and found at least temporary freedom. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re headed for a higher place, not a lower. They’re going to a higher place, not a lower.
He said that in response to this, a girl complaining that her uncle wasn't celibate but attained once-returner (The Buddha later calls her a fool).
“Sir, Ānanda, how on earth are we supposed to understand the teaching taught by the Buddha, when the chaste and the unchaste are both reborn in exactly the same place in the next life? My father Purāṇa was celibate, set apart, avoiding the common practice of sex. When he passed away the Buddha declared that he was a once-returner, who was reborn in the company of the Joyful Gods. But my uncle Isidatta was not celibate; he lived content with his wife. When he passed away the Buddha declared that he was also a once-returner, who was reborn in the company of the Joyful Gods.
And The Buddha warns fools of judging other's attainments.
Judgmental people compare them, saying: ‘This one has just the same qualities as the other, so why is one worse and one better?’ This will be for their lasting harm and suffering.
And explains only Buddhas can know who has attained what.
In this case, the person who is unethical, but truly understands the freedom of heart … and has listened and learned and comprehended theoretically and found at least temporary freedom is better and finer than the other person. Why is that? Because the stream of the teaching carries them along. But who knows the difference between them except a Realized One? So, Ānanda, don’t be judgmental about people. Don’t pass judgment on people. Those who pass judgment on people harm themselves. I, or someone like me, may pass judgment on people.
- AN 10.75

Therefore Ethics/Sila is simply a boost that increases your odds of attainment, it's not a mandatory requirement if you already have sharp discerning faculties.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:05 pm

Sensual desires are one of the hindrances for attaining the first jhana.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:10 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:05 pm
Sensual desires are one of the hindrances for attaining the first jhana.
Yes, when they arise in meditation. Do you have sex when you meditate?

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:28 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:10 pm
Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:05 pm
Sensual desires are one of the hindrances for attaining the first jhana.
Yes, when they arise in meditation. Do you have sex when you meditate?
No. It is about the complete removal of the mind from sensual pleasures in life, and not only during meditation. If it were enough to get rid of sensual desire only for the duration of meditation, then everyone who sat down to meditate would reach jhan very quickly ;) But no, few people are capable of it in the world.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:35 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:28 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:10 pm
Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:05 pm
Sensual desires are one of the hindrances for attaining the first jhana.
Yes, when they arise in meditation. Do you have sex when you meditate?
No. It is about the complete removal of the mind from sensual pleasures in life, and not only during meditation. If it were enough to get rid of sensual desire only for the duration of meditation, then everyone who sat down to meditate would reach jhan very quickly ;) But no, few people are capable of it in the world.
Sure, the purpose of sense restraint is to help reduce cravings so they don't arise during meditation and act as a hindrance.

But you wrote:
About having sex (behavior at the level of the body), even speech does not go; it is discarded even before the purification begins at the level of the mind.
Which is not true, as the sutta I referenced shows a person who is not celibate attained once-return (which requires some jhanas, but not mastery, according to the suttas).

This is why the Buddha called that woman a fool. Not everyone has the same obsessions, some people obsess over food, some over sex, some over health, some over work, some over other things. The guy may have sex once a week with his wife, but this may not interfere with his meditation.

Likewise, bad conduct is only an issue if it distracts your meditation. Someone who killed a fruit fly as week ago isn't going to think about it during meditation.

It's not black and white like you make it out to be. If it was then please tell me how long one has to not have sex for hm to be considered celibate? One week? One month? One year? One decade? One life? Please specify the moment one has become "celibate". How long must he wait to earn the title?

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:47 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:35 pm
attained once-return (which requires some jhanas
Not necessary. The janas are necessary to reach the level of anagami and Arahant.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:53 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:47 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:35 pm
attained once-return (which requires some jhanas
Not necessary. The janas are necessary to reach the level of anagami and Arahant.
Not according to the suttas.
"There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules.

"With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.
- AN 3.86

Anagamin has jhana mastery. Once returner and Stream entry have moderate jhana. We're not discussing Jhana mastery.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:06 pm

If you about this: "moderately accomplished in concentration", it is not about jhana, but about other lower types of samadhi.

The fruit of the sotapanna + the first jhana = the fruit of the anagami https://suttacentral.net/an3.94/en/sujato
Last edited by Antaradhana on Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:07 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:06 pm
If you about this: "moderately accomplished in concentration", it is not about jhana, but about other lower types of samadhi.
No such thing. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas. The only other types of concentration come AFTER 4 jhanas.

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Antaradhana
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Re: Jhana

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:16 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:07 pm
No such thing. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas. The only other types of concentration come AFTER 4 jhanas.
You confuse samma samadhi, as a factor of the Way, and samadhi, as mental capacity. And there are also aggregate of samadhi, which include the right efforts and the right mindfullness and 4 jhanas. In the sutta which you quote it is said about samadhi as an ability, not as a factor of the Way.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:18 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:06 pm
The fruit of the sotapanna + the first jhana = the fruit of the anagami https://suttacentral.net/an3.94/en/sujato
As the sutta I referenced says, Anagamins are wholly trained in the 4 jhanas (they have Jhana mastery).

And what about Once returners?

Once returner has reduced Desire and Aversion, thus they have attained jhanas, albeit temporarily and haven't mastered it.

budo
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Re: Jhana

Post by budo » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:20 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:16 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:07 pm
No such thing. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as the 4 jhanas. The only other types of concentration come AFTER 4 jhanas.
You confuse samma samadhi, as a factor of the Way, and samadhi, as mental capacity. And there are also aggregate of samadhi, which include the right efforts and the right mindfullness and 4 jhanas. In the sutta which you quote it is said about samadhi as an ability, not as a factor of the Way.
Wrong. The sutta I referenced refers to the 3 trainings. The next sutta that comes after that one defines the 3 trainings.
"And what is the training in heightened virtue? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Pāṭimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue.

"And what is the training in heightened mind? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful [mental] qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the training in heightened mind.

"And what is the training in heightened discernment? There is the case where a monk discerns as it actually is that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the training in heightened discernment.

"These are the three trainings."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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