What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:44 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:04 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:27 pm
It would be interesting to find some sutta examples where mano is explicitly equated to vinnana, and where citta is explicitly equated to vinnana.
I think robertk provided a very clear example above in SN12.61,
But that which is called ‘mind’ or ‘sentience’ or ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night.
Yañca kho etaṃ, bhikkhave, vuccati cittaṃ itipi, mano itipi, viññāṇaṃ itipi, taṃ rattiyā ca divasassa ca aññadeva uppajjati aññaṃ nirujjhati.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato

Mano is the exception here, since it can also refer to the mind as a one of the six senses. But Mind base is peculiar in that it can access all the other senses. When mano is included all the other senses are included.
What do these five faculties, with their different scopes and ranges, have recourse to? What experiences their scopes and ranges?”

“These five faculties, with their different scopes and ranges, have recourse to the mind. And the mind experiences their scopes and ranges.”
(Imesaṃ kho, āvuso, pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ nānāvisayānaṃ nānāgocarānaṃ, na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṃ paccanubhontānaṃ, mano paṭisaraṇaṃ, mano ca nesaṃ gocaravisayaṃ paccanubhotī”ti.)
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
I don't think SN12.61is saying that vinnana, citta and mano are the same thing, rather it's saying that people have different ideas about it, different ways of describing.

I agree that mano has a range of meaning, but I don't think it's clear how this relates to vinnana and citta.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:55 am

Do we knows what and where the mind base is ?the fact is we don't have a clue .
:coffee:

Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:00 am

justindesilva wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:29 am
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:35 pm
justindesilva wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:28 pm


Citta gives rise to 52 cetasika which define the quality of citta arising and it is these cetasika which defines klesa or aklesa. Vingana in turn acts on these citta to form karma. I hope this will clarify the difference of citta and vingnana.
In paticca samuppada pancendriya is rupa vedana sanna sankara that arises with citta and it acts with vinnana with each of salayatana. It says salayatana paccaya passo passa paccaya vedana vedana paccaya tanha tanha paccaya upadana ............
Yet avidya paccaya sankara sankara paccaya vingnana is described in 1st 3 conditions of DO. Vingnana here acts in a diferent manner to vingnana in pancendriya.
This is Abhidhamma approach.

http://103.242.110.22/theravadins/Engli ... actice.pdf

In Abhidhamma there are Rupa,Citta, Cetasika,Nibbana
Citta = Citta
Cetasika = Vinnana (I think)
I am sure that cetasika and vinnana are two different aspects of citta. Cetasika is the quality of mind ( one of 52) while vingnana is part of dependant origination .
Yes, vinnana appears to be an aspect of citta, along with cetasikas. Cetasikas include functions like phassa, sanna and vedana, so citta appears to represent "mentality".
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Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:02 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:55 am
Do we knows what and where the mind base is ?the fact is we don't have a clue .
And your point is?
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sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:11 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:02 am
And your point is?
You provide the specimen before able to examine it . At least you know what is the eyes , ears , nose , tongue , body .
:coffee:

Srilankaputra
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:12 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:44 am

I don't think SN12.61is saying that vinnana, citta and mano are the same thing, rather it's saying that people have different ideas about it, different ways of describing.
These are just words we have to see the dhamma behind. I would say it this way;

That, which is called citta by some or mano by some or vinnana by another arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:17 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:11 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:02 am
And your point is?
You provide the specimen before able to examine it . At least you know what is the eyes , ears , nose , tongue , body .
Where do your thoughts arise?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

chownah
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by chownah » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:20 am

I think that many distinctions are being drawn here about the various uses of the various terms....however I don't see much which clearly delineates either exactly why a particular usage is used in a particular situation or whether an alernative word can be used as well.

For instance, nyanatiloca's dictionary says that citta means 'mind', 'consciousness', 'state of consciousness' and is a synonym for mano and vinnana. It does not give any explanation of when it is inappropriate to use citta in place of mano or vinnana. If nyanatiloka does not broach this subject then it is probably not very well settled among scholars (perhaps I am mistaken in saying this). It seems that people here are disallowing the substitution of citta for mano but really I do not see any basis for doing this. I think the most that can be said is that the suttas tend to use certain terms in certain circumstances but it is not clearly explained why....with this in mind we should perhaps make leeway for the allowance of substitution to see if some sense or discovery can be made with that substitution and also being careful to be watchful for any pitfalls which might come about.
chownah

sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:23 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:17 am
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:11 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:02 am
And your point is?
You provide the specimen before able to examine it . At least you know what is the eyes , ears , nose , tongue , body .
Where do your thoughts arise?
That is an assumption .
:coffee:

Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:44 am

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:23 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:17 am
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:11 am


You provide the specimen before able to examine it . At least you know what is the eyes , ears , nose , tongue , body .
Where do your thoughts arise?
That is an assumption .
No, it was a straightforward question. My thoughts arise "in my head", or at least it feels like that.
I think this is because the main sense organs are located physically in the head, so it feels like that's the "centre" of my experience.

I'm still not sure what you're questioning though. Are you questioning the idea that we have a mind?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:41 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:15 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:32 pm
The third noble truth appears to refer to the cessation of craving rather than the cessation of citta.
Well, yes, that's one of these points of controversy...

However, the point is that in the suttas there are these various terms that are used in different contexts, even though they have a large overlap.

:heart:
Mike
It could be a case of overlap, or it could be more like a hierarchy, with citta as the whole mind, mano as mind-base and vinnana as mind-consciousness.
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Srilankaputra
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:08 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:41 am

It could be a case of overlap, or it could be more like a hierarchy, with citta as the whole mind, mano as mind-base and vinnana as mind-consciousness.
The problem stems from the nature of experiential reality it self. The following quotes illustrate this ,
“Feeling, perception, and consciousness—
“Yā cāvuso, vedanā yā ca saññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—

are these things mixed or separate?
ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā udāhu visaṃsaṭṭhā?

And can we completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them?”
Labbhā ca panimesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti?

“Feeling, perception, and consciousness—
“Yā cāvuso, vedanā yā ca saññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—

these things are mixed, not separate.
ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā, no visaṃsaṭṭhā.

And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them.
Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ.
‘Suppose, O king, the cook in the royal household were to make a syrup or a sauce, and were to put into it curds, and salt, and ginger, and cummin seed, and pepper, and other ingredients. And suppose the king were to say to him: “Pick out for me the flavour of the curds, and of the salt, and of the ginger, and of the cummin seed, and of the pepper, and of all the things you have put into it.” Now would it be possible, great king, separating off one from another those flavours that had thus run together, to pick out each one, so that one could say: “Here is the sourness, and here the saltness, and here the pungency, and here the acidity, and here the astringency, and here the sweetness”?’

‘No, that would not be possible . But each flavour would nevertheless be distinctly present by its characteristic sign.’

‘And just so, great king, with respect to those conditions we were discussing.’
It's not possible i think to come to a complete intellectual understanding of reality, rather dhamma needs to be seen with wisdom and given up.
“How do you understand something that can be known?”
“Neyyaṃ panāvuso, dhammaṃ kena pajānātī”ti?

“You understand something that can be known with the eye of wisdom.”
“Neyyaṃ kho, āvuso, dhammaṃ paññācakkhunā pajānātī”ti.

“What is the purpose of wisdom?”
“Paññā panāvuso, kimatthiyā”ti?

“The purpose of wisdom is direct knowledge, complete understanding, and giving up.”
“Paññā kho, āvuso, abhiññatthā pariññatthā pahānatthā”ti.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

sentinel
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by sentinel » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:41 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:44 am


No, it was a straightforward question. My thoughts arise "in my head", or at least it feels like that.
I think this is because the main sense organs are located physically in the head, so it feels like that's the "centre" of my experience.

I'm still not sure what you're questioning though. Are you questioning the idea that we have a mind?
It is just your assumption on your part , you assert that there is a mind base where mind consciousness arises . That is just an experience . To put it another way , in between your self and external (world) , you notice the thought arises and pick it up . Do you see the difference ?

srilankaputra wrote: It's not possible i think to come to a complete intellectual understanding of reality, rather dhamma needs to be seen with wisdom and given up.
It appears that the knowledge of Buddha time and its application has a wide gap according to our advanced scientific understanding .
:coffee:

chownah
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by chownah » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:40 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:41 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:15 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:32 pm
The third noble truth appears to refer to the cessation of craving rather than the cessation of citta.
Well, yes, that's one of these points of controversy...

However, the point is that in the suttas there are these various terms that are used in different contexts, even though they have a large overlap.

:heart:
Mike
It could be a case of overlap, or it could be more like a hierarchy, with citta as the whole mind, mano as mind-base and vinnana as mind-consciousness.
In reply to mikenz66 and dinsdale,
Is there some compelling reason why citta and mano can not be seen as completely interchangeable in all instances.....and the same for citta and vinana? Nyanatiloka calls citta a synonym for mano and for vinana.
chownah

Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:28 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:40 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:41 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:15 pm

Well, yes, that's one of these points of controversy...

However, the point is that in the suttas there are these various terms that are used in different contexts, even though they have a large overlap.

:heart:
Mike
It could be a case of overlap, or it could be more like a hierarchy, with citta as the whole mind, mano as mind-base and vinnana as mind-consciousness.
In reply to mikenz66 and dinsdale,
Is there some compelling reason why citta and mano can not be seen as completely interchangeable in all instances.....and the same for citta and vinana? Nyanatiloka calls citta a synonym for mano and for vinana.
chownah
Sure, you can view them as synonyms, but they seem to be used in different ways in the suttas, and understanding the how and why of those differences might be significant and useful terms of how you practice.

Its not straightforward though. Sometimes different words mean the same thing in different contexts, sometimes they dont. Sometimes the same word in different contexts means different things, sometimes it doesn't. IMO context is the most important consideration in understanding how words are being used, and what they mean.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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