What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:35 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:28 pm
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
Where do you find Citta in Dependent Origination?
Please quote some Sutta to support your answer.
Citta gives rise to 52 cetasika which define the quality of citta arising and it is these cetasika which defines klesa or aklesa. Vingana in turn acts on these citta to form karma. I hope this will clarify the difference of citta and vingnana.
In paticca samuppada pancendriya is rupa vedana sanna sankara that arises with citta and it acts with vinnana with each of salayatana. It says salayatana paccaya passo passa paccaya vedana vedana paccaya tanha tanha paccaya upadana ............
Yet avidya paccaya sankara sankara paccaya vingnana is described in 1st 3 conditions of DO. Vingnana here acts in a diferent manner to vingnana in pancendriya.
This is Abhidhamma approach.

http://103.242.110.22/theravadins/Engli ... actice.pdf

In Abhidhamma there are Rupa,Citta, Cetasika,Nibbana
Citta = Citta
Cetasika = Vinnana (I think)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:32 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:44 am
Sujato wrote: 1. Viṇṇāṇa is part of the khandhas and āyatanas, and hence pertains to the first noble truth: it is suffering.
2. Mano is typically used in an active sense of will or volition, closely related to kamma, and hence pertains to the second noble truth, the cause of suffering.
3. Citta is to be developed and thus pertains to the fourth noble truth.
It seems illogical if the citta is to be developed that it must later cease.
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:44 am
Sujato wrote:The cessation of all these is, of course, the third noble truth.
The third noble truth appears to refer to the cessation of craving rather than the cessation of citta. MN 43 similarly appears to say the liberation of citta is not the cessation of citta but the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.
That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

Sā kho panākuppā cetovimutti suññā rāgena, suññā dosena, suññā mohena

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:38 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
Since citta is an object of consciousness in satipatthana, it is obviously not the same as consciousness. Citta is described in the Cittavagga; where as consciousness is described as six-fold sense-awareness in many suttas.
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
Where do you find Citta in Dependent Origination?
The citta originates from nama and rupa .
Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo.
SN 47.42

Perception & feeling are the citta sankhara (mind conditioner)
saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro
MN 44
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:02 pm

Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo.
It is also said "Vinnana paccaya Namarupa"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:15 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:32 pm
The third noble truth appears to refer to the cessation of craving rather than the cessation of citta.
Well, yes, that's one of these points of controversy...

However, the point is that in the suttas there are these various terms that are used in different contexts, even though they have a large overlap.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:32 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:15 pm
Well, yes, that's one of these points of controversy...
The sutta teaching appears plain enough. I think it is not correct to deem every obvious wrong view as a "controversy".
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:02 pm
It is also said "Vinnana paccaya Namarupa"
The above appears only in the 12 link formula because "sankhara" is also mentality; and vinnana is dependent upon sankhara. The suttas appear to always say vinnana is a "dependent" phenomena; such as dependent upon sense bases. But you appear to be imputing "vinnana", similar to Hindu Brahma & Solipsism, is the 1st cause.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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mikenz66
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:32 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:15 pm
Well, yes, that's one of these points of controversy...
The sutta teaching appears plain enough. I think it is not correct to deem every obvious wrong view as a "controversy".
It may seem plain enough to you, but many would disagree with the idea of an "eternal citta", though it seems to be popular among certain Thai Forest teachers viewtopic.php?t=1205. I've no interest in debating the point here, I am just noting that there is disagreement about it:
viewtopic.php?p=329417#p329417
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33643

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cappuccino
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:43 pm

DooDoot wrote:The suttas appear to always say vinnana is a "dependent" phenomena
partly, partly not

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:50 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:42 pm
Thai Forest teachers
Thai Forest teachers often sound similar to Tibetan Lamaism or Guru Worship. Thai forest monk Buddhadasa as a Mahayana Deity, below:
Attachments
buddhadasa aloka.jpg
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:59 pm

the forest teachers are right


Nirvana is everlasting…
S 43.1-44

justindesilva
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by justindesilva » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:35 pm
justindesilva wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:28 pm
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
Where do you find Citta in Dependent Origination?
Please quote some Sutta to support your answer.
Citta gives rise to 52 cetasika which define the quality of citta arising and it is these cetasika which defines klesa or aklesa. Vingana in turn acts on these citta to form karma. I hope this will clarify the difference of citta and vingnana.
In paticca samuppada pancendriya is rupa vedana sanna sankara that arises with citta and it acts with vinnana with each of salayatana. It says salayatana paccaya passo passa paccaya vedana vedana paccaya tanha tanha paccaya upadana ............
Yet avidya paccaya sankara sankara paccaya vingnana is described in 1st 3 conditions of DO. Vingnana here acts in a diferent manner to vingnana in pancendriya.
This is Abhidhamma approach.

http://103.242.110.22/theravadins/Engli ... actice.pdf

In Abhidhamma there are Rupa,Citta, Cetasika,Nibbana
Citta = Citta
Cetasika = Vinnana (I think)
I am sure that cetasika and vinnana are two different aspects of citta. Cetasika is the quality of mind ( one of 52) while vingnana is part of dependant origination .

pegembara
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by pegembara » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:11 am

Citta can be defiled or developed, unlike vinnana.
“Luminous, monks, is the mind(citta).1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn’t discern that as it has come to be, which is why I tell you that—for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person—there is no development of the mind.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it has come to be, which is why I tell you that—for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones—there is development of the mind.”
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:26 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:23 pm

I think that this is they key to making sense of the various expositions in the suttas. There is an understandable tendency to try to interpret the suttas as if they were conceived as a consistent "text book", and therefore to look for exact correspondences.
Exactly, the perpose of the teaching is disillusionment, nibbana. It's not about coming to a intellectual understanding of the whole world as in philosophy or science. Latter is good to win debates but want help much with reducing dukkha. imo
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:04 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:27 pm
It would be interesting to find some sutta examples where mano is explicitly equated to vinnana, and where citta is explicitly equated to vinnana.
I think robertk provided a very clear example above in SN12.61,
But that which is called ‘mind’ or ‘sentience’ or ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night.
Yañca kho etaṃ, bhikkhave, vuccati cittaṃ itipi, mano itipi, viññāṇaṃ itipi, taṃ rattiyā ca divasassa ca aññadeva uppajjati aññaṃ nirujjhati.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato

Mano is the exception here, since it can also refer to the mind as a one of the six senses. But Mind base is peculiar in that it can access all the other senses. When mano is included all the other senses are included.
What do these five faculties, with their different scopes and ranges, have recourse to? What experiences their scopes and ranges?”

“These five faculties, with their different scopes and ranges, have recourse to the mind. And the mind experiences their scopes and ranges.”
(Imesaṃ kho, āvuso, pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ nānāvisayānaṃ nānāgocarānaṃ, na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṃ paccanubhontānaṃ, mano paṭisaraṇaṃ, mano ca nesaṃ gocaravisayaṃ paccanubhotī”ti.)
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:16 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:04 am
I think robertk provided a very clear example above in SN12.61,
Hi. It appears "equated" in terms of its impermanence rather than equated in terms of its function.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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