SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

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SarathW
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SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:58 pm

SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

There are two interesting points I wish to see your opinion on this sutta.
Point 1 :

Form is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into form. Feeling is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into feeling. Perception is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into perception. Choices are conditioned phenomena; choices are what make them into choices. Consciousness is a conditioned phenomenon; choices are what make it into consciousness.
Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato

Point2:
This is called a mendicant who neither gets rid of things nor accumulates them, but remains after getting rid of them. They neither give things up nor grasp them, but remain after giving them up. They neither discard things nor amass them, but remain after discarding them. They neither dissipate things nor get clouded by them, but remain after dissipating them.
Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu nevācināti na apacināti, apacinitvā ṭhito; neva pajahati na upādiyati, pajahitvā ṭhito; neva visineti na ussineti, visinetvā ṭhito; neva vidhūpeti na sandhūpeti vidhūpetvā ṭhito
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:43 pm

Possibly alternate translations would be helpful.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:44 pm

BB's translation.

“And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations. And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form; they construct conditioned feeling as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations; they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi

This is called, bhikkhus, a noble disciple who neither builds up nor dismantles, but who abides having dismantled; who neither abandons nor clings, but who abides having abandoned; who neither scatters nor amasses, but who abides having scattered; who neither extinguishes nor kindles, but who abides having extinguished.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:52 pm

Possibly alternate translations would be helpful.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:53 pm

I like Ven. Thanissaro's translation.

"And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate as a fabricated thing? For the sake of form-ness, they fabricate form as a fabricated thing. For the sake of feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling as a fabricated thing. For the sake of perception-hood... For the sake of fabrication-hood... For the sake of consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness as a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications. [3]
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .than.html

"This, monks, is called a disciple of the noble ones who tears down and does not build up; who abandons and does not cling; who discards and does not pull in; who scatters and does not pile up.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:07 am

Bhikkhus, why do they speak of sankhara? Bhikkhus, this nature naturally concocts concocted things (abhisankharonti), for this reason it is called "sankhara." What does it concoct? It concocts rupa as something concocted with "formness," it concocts vedana as something concocted with "feelingness," it concocts sanya as something concocted with "recognition-ness," it concocts sankhara as something concocted with "concoctingness," it concocts vinyana as something concocted with "cognition-ness." Bhikkhus, this nature naturally concocts concocted things, for this reason it is called "sankhara." Buddhadasa translator from the past


Friends, why do people call them "concoctings (saṅkhāra)"? Because of the activities of concocting into “things” these activities are called "saṅkhāra." And what do these activities concoct into concocted things? They concoct form into “form,” concoct vedanā into “vedanā,” concoct recognition into “recognition,” concoct concocting into “concocting,” and concoct cognizing into “cognizing.” Because of these activities of concocting into “things” these very activities are called "saṅkhāra (concoctings)." Buddhadasa translator from the present
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:12 am

Ok.
We got four translations.
What is the meaning of these in your own words?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:35 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:07 am
They concoct form into “form”
Does this mean that this process, documented in the suttas, will no longer be derided as Solipsism?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:35 am
Does this mean that this process, documented in the suttas, will no longer be derided as Solipsism?
That translation is they concoct form into "form" rather than they concoct "form" into form ... :mrgreen:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:50 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:38 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:35 am
Does this mean that this process, documented in the suttas, will no longer be derided as Solipsism?
That translation is they concoct form into "form" rather than they concoct "form" into form ... :mrgreen:
Yeah, of course.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

sentinel
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 am

So , it is clear that something is made out of the five aggregates that is called sankhara . However , to determine sankhara in dependent origination is referring to what exactly that is undecided .
:buddha1:

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:48 am

Greetings,
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 am
However , to determine sankhara in dependent origination is referring to what exactly that is undecided .
It's not that complicated. It's anything that is fabricated, dependent upon avijja.

For more, see ven. Nanananda, from the Nibbana Sermons...
Therefore, when the light of wisdom comes and dispels the darkness of ignorance, a similar event can occur. One will come out of that plane of existence. One will step out of the world of sense desires, at least temporarily.

Now, with regard to the arahants, too, the same trend of events holds good. When their ignorance ceases, leaving no residue, avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā, exhausting the influxes as well, preparations also cease. Why? Because the preparations owe their existence to ignorance. They have the ability to prepare so long as there is ignorance.

Saṅkhāra generally means preparations. It is the make-up and the make-believe which accounted for the delusion. The darkness of ignorance provided the setting for it. If somehow or other, the light of wisdom enters the scene, those preparations, saṅkhāra, became no-preparations, visaṅkhāra, and the prepared, saṅkhata, becomes a non-prepared, asaṅkhata.

So what was true with regard to the film show, is also true, in a deeper sense, with regard to the events leading up to the attainment of arahant-hood. With the dawn of that light of wisdom, the preparations, or saṅkhāra, lose their significance and become visaṅkhāra.

Though for the world outside they appear as preparations, for the arahant they are not preparations, because they do not prepare a bhava, or existence, for him. They are made ineffective. Similarly, the prepared or the made-up, when it is understood as something prepared or made-up, becomes an un-prepared or an un-made. There is a subtle principle of un-doing involved in this.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

sunnat
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by sunnat » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:06 am

"There is a subtle principle of un-doing involved in this." - not much makes me laugh. This did. The crux in a riddle. What exactly is this principle.

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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:14 am

Greetings,
sunnat wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:06 am
"There is a subtle principle of un-doing involved in this." - not much makes me laugh. This did. The crux in a riddle. What exactly is this principle.
Much of the path beyond stream-winning is about undoing or seeing through that which is rooted in ignorance....

Higher jhanas are an instance of "doing" less....

Arahantship is also known as "unbinding"... (It's worth thinking about what this word entails)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

sentinel
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Re: SN22.79 Fabricate the fabricated?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:48 am
Greetings,


It's not that complicated. It's anything that is fabricated, dependent upon avijja.


Though for the world outside they appear as preparations, for the arahant they are not preparations, because they do not prepare a bhava, or existence, for him. They are made ineffective. Similarly, the prepared or the made-up, when it is understood as something prepared or made-up, becomes an un-prepared or an un-made. There is a subtle principle of un-doing involved in this.
Metta,
Paul. :)
[/quote]

What is being prepared is the question in the dependent origination ?
And bhava has not enter the picture yet as sankhara at second link in dependent origination .
:buddha1:

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