What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

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SarathW
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What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am

What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
Where do you find Citta in Dependent Origination?
Please quote some Sutta to support your answer.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:14 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
As I understand it citta is mind, and vinnana is six-fold sense-consciousness (including mano-vinnana, or mind-consciouness).

Based on experience of practising the third frame of Satipatthana, I imagine citta as like the space in which thoughts, moods and states arise. Or you could say the mind takes on different qualities, sometimes described as the "weather" of the mind.

In the suttas vinnana is described as transient and dependent arising, and appears to be the basic function of awareness. I dont think that vinnana can take on different qualities in the way that citta does.

The question about citta and DO is interesting. Maybe you could say it all takes place "in the mind", assuming that dukkha is a purely mental phenomena?
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sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by sentinel » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:32 am

They are six type of consciousness .
Mind wasn't in the five aggregates unless taken as synonymous or taken as the number six sense base .
As per the four satipatthana , it is rather strange for Buddha would applied mind instead of consciousness .
Thus , similar to dependent origination , mind was not in the picture .
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mikenz66
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:44 am

There are some useful observation here:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ci ... ons/4254/2
Sujato wrote: While there have been many attempts to show that these are either the same or different, in my view that is missing the point somewhat. The terms are, generally speaking, synonyms, and their usage overlaps to some degree, but they tend to be used in different contexts:

1. Viṇṇāṇa is part of the khandhas and āyatanas, and hence pertains to the first noble truth: it is suffering.
2. Mano is typically used in an active sense of will or volition, closely related to kamma, and hence pertains to the second noble truth, the cause of suffering.
3. Citta is to be developed and thus pertains to the fourth noble truth.

The cessation of all these is, of course, the third noble truth.
As I pointed out on that thread, Bhikkhu Bodhi made a similar observation in his AN lectures.

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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:07 am

Where is the ignorance in DO?
Is it Mano, Citta or Vinnana?
Can we allocate DO each of these three categories?
Last edited by SarathW on Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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robertk
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by robertk » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:21 am

viewtopic.php?t=22202

They are in fact synonyms for the same reality

61:<Ya.m ca kho eta.m bhikkhave vuccati citta.m iti pi mano iti pi
vi~n~na.m iti pi...

"But that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing
and ceases as another by day and night
."
Samyutta 12:61 (Bhikkhu Bodhi transl).


Vism X1V, 82

" 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all
taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what
has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness
(vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why
'consciousness' is said (M i 292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness),
citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning
."

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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by chownah » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
Where do you find Citta in Dependent Origination?
Please quote some Sutta to support your answer.
I don't know about your question but doesn't it work like this:
When the mind (citta) and consciousness (vinnana) and a thought (a mental object...I have no cue about what this might be in pali) come together contact arises?
chownah

sentinel
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by sentinel » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:12 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm

When the mind (citta) and consciousness (vinnana) and a thought (a mental object...I have no cue about what this might be in pali) come together contact arises?
chownah
Mind(citta) vs thought(vittaka as object) = consciousness (vinnana) ?
Is that what you mean ?
Is there text support this ?
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:20 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
Where do you find Citta in Dependent Origination?
Please quote some Sutta to support your answer.
I don't know about your question but doesn't it work like this:
When the mind (citta) and consciousness (vinnana) and a thought (a mental object...I have no cue about what this might be in pali) come together contact arises?
chownah
Mano is the sixth sense-base, and it works the same as the bodily sense organs, where consciousness arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object.

So mano-vinnana (mind consciousness) arises in dependence upon mano (mind base) and dhammas (mental objects).

One implication of this is that mano cannot be the same as vinnana.

I find citta more difficult to pin down, maybe something like "heart/mind"? In the third frame of satipatthana it is states of mind (citta) which are observed.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:28 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:12 pm
chownah wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm

When the mind (citta) and consciousness (vinnana) and a thought (a mental object...I have no cue about what this might be in pali) come together contact arises?
chownah
Mind(citta) vs thought(vittaka as object) = consciousness (vinnana) ?
Is that what you mean ?
Is there text support this ?
See here in SN35. 94 for example, where mind is listed as one of the bases for contact, along with the bodily sense-organs. If you check the Pali, mind-base here is mano.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.94/en/bodhi
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:14 pm

Citta and vinnana are always synonymous.

Mano can refer to consciousness/citta as a whole or just to mind as one of six sense bases. Depends on context. In the above sutta sn35.94 quoted by Dinsdale both usages can be found.
When the mind is well developed like this regarding the six,
Evaṃ mano chassu yadā subhāvito,
In the above mano is used to refer to citta/consciousness.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:28 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
Where do you find Citta in Dependent Origination?
Please quote some Sutta to support your answer.
Citta gives rise to 52 cetasika which define the quality of citta arising and it is these cetasika which defines klesa or aklesa. Vingana in turn acts on these citta to form karma. I hope this will clarify the difference of citta and vingnana.
In paticca samuppada pancendriya is rupa vedana sanna sankara that arises with citta and it acts with vinnana with each of salayatana. It says salayatana paccaya passo passa paccaya vedana vedana paccaya tanha tanha paccaya upadana ............
Yet avidya paccaya sankara sankara paccaya vingnana is described in 1st 3 conditions of DO. Vingnana here acts in a diferent manner to vingnana in pancendriya.

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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:27 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:14 pm
Citta and vinnana are always synonymous.

Mano can refer to consciousness/citta as a whole or just to mind as one of six sense bases. Depends on context. In the above sutta sn35.94 quoted by Dinsdale both usages can be found.
When the mind is well developed like this regarding the six,
Evaṃ mano chassu yadā subhāvito,
In the above mano is used to refer to citta/consciousness.
I can see that mano is used in a more expansive way in the second case, since it encompasses contact at all six bases.
What is less clear is whether mano in the second case is identical with vinnana. That would mean vinnana arising from mano in the first case, and mano being the same as vinnana in the second case - does that really make sense?

SN35.93 describes the first case above, ie mind-conscious arising in dependence upon mind-base and thoughts.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.93/en/sujato

It would be interesting to find some sutta examples where mano is explicitly equated to vinnana, and where citta is explicitly equated to vinnana.
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:01 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:28 pm
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:57 am
What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?
Where do you find Citta in Dependent Origination?
Please quote some Sutta to support your answer.
Citta gives rise to 52 cetasika which define the quality of citta arising and it is these cetasika which defines klesa or aklesa. Vingana in turn acts on these citta to form karma. I hope this will clarify the difference of citta and vingnana.
In paticca samuppada pancendriya is rupa vedana sanna sankara that arises with citta and it acts with vinnana with each of salayatana. It says salayatana paccaya passo passa paccaya vedana vedana paccaya tanha tanha paccaya upadana ............
Yet avidya paccaya sankara sankara paccaya vingnana is described in 1st 3 conditions of DO. Vingnana here acts in a diferent manner to vingnana in pancendriya.
Could you elaborate on the bit about vinnana acting on the cittas to form kamma? I get the bit about citta comprising various mental factors, but not how vinnana acts on them.
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mikenz66
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Re: What is the difference between Citta and Vinnana?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:23 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:14 pm
... Depends on context. ...
I think that this is they key to making sense of the various expositions in the suttas. There is an understandable tendency to try to interpret the suttas as if they were conceived as a consistent "text book", and therefore to look for exact correspondences. The abhidhamma, and various modern analyses, follow that approach.

The same "problem" applies to aggregates, sense-bases and name&form+consciousness. These could all be taken as "ways of classifying our experience", and one can then ask how to map them onto each other. But, as with mano, citta, vinnana, they tend to be used in different types of teaching: aggregates in the first noble truth https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11 and in expositions of not-self https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59, sense bases in expositions of greed, hatred, and delusion https://suttacentral.net/sn35.28 and name&form+consciousness in dependent origination https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2, https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/sujato#sc3.

Rather than asking: "are mano, citta, vinnana the same?" it might be better to ask: "how are mano, citta, and vinnana used in the suttas to explain particular aspects of Dhamma?". There have been some useful contributions to answering that question on this thread.

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Mike

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