SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
budo
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:37 pm

The 5 hindrances prevent one from focusing (yoniso maniskara) on the nimitta:
"But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish.

We haven’t worked out the pattern of that.”
tañca nimittaṃ nappaṭivijjhāmā”ti.

“Now you should work out the pattern of that.
“Taṃ kho pana vo, anuruddhā, nimittaṃ paṭivijjhitabbaṃ.

...

Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too perceived both light and vision of forms. But before long my light and vision of forms vanished. It occurred to me:


'What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’

‘ko nu kho hetu ko paccayo yena me obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca
rūpānan’ti?

It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṃ, anuruddhā, etadahosi:

‘Loss of focus arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away.
‘amanasikāro kho me udapādi, amanasikārādhikaraṇañca pana me samādhi cavi.
-MN 128

Yoniso Manasikara is needed from beginning to end from Right View to Right Concentration

The 5 hindrances pull attention away from good objects (satipathana, one pointedness, single objectness, nimitta) to bad objects (objects of sensual desire, doubt, etc..)

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DooDoot
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:12 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:35 am
This suggests that appropriate attention is more than the initial intellectual understanding based on thought.
I already wrote:
The above text appears to clearly describe Gotama was "thinking" rather than exclusively "directly seeing".
What is the point of quoting my entire post when it is not even read clearly?

Of course Gotama was both thinking & observing when he made his discovery. Gotama was directly sensing/feeling the emotional impact of ideas of "birth" & "death".
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:35 am
It would be interesting to explore the relationship between anupassi and yoniso manaskira.
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:32 am
Very good Dinsdale
It appears the philosophical hypotheses above by Dinsdale & Budo :console: have no relevance to the discussion about "anupassi" ("direct seeing"), that is, these philosophical hypotheses are illogical contradictions. Why? :shrug: :smile:

Because both Dinsdale & Budo appear to believe "jati" & "marana" are "physical birth" & "physical death". If "jati" & "marana" are "physical birth" & "physical death", as Dinsdale & Budo appear to believe, then it appears not possible Gotama "observed" ("anupassi") "jati" & "marana". Instead, Gotama would have been exclusively "thinking".

Note: Before Budo replies with some hocus pokus, the 1st knowledge of recollecting past abodes (while appearing to not actually mean "past lives") is not described as using any psychic power (unlike the 2nd knowledge that uses psychic power of the Eye of Yahweh). In other words, the "yoniso manasikara" used by Gotama do discover Dependent Origination appeared to be with a normal mind.
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:32 am
...people with no [intellectual] integrity, will protect their projecting and defend their egoes.
I think I clearly demonstrated the arguments of Dinsdale & Budo lack intellectual rigor or coherence. Dinsdale & Budo claim "jati" & "marana" are "physical birth" & "physical death" yet they appear to also claim Gotama directly observed (anupassi) "physical birth" & "physical death" when he made his breakthrough.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Personal attacks removed
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Srilankaputra
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:12 am
"jati" & "marana" mean "ego-birth" and "ego-death"
Hi DD,

How would you define 'Jarā' ?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:10 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:51 am


How would you define 'Jarā' ?
Hi SLP. I recall Jara is defined in SN 12.2 as the aging, greying, wrinkling, etc, of “beings”. I remember we discussed together what “a being” is; as defined in SN 23.2. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Srilankaputra
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:10 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:51 am


How would you define 'Jarā' ?
Hi SLP. I recall Jara is defined in SN 12.2 as the aging, greying, wrinkling, etc, of “beings”. I remember we discussed together what “a being” is; as defined in SN 23.2. Regards
May I just point out that Sn23.2 does not say 'what a being is' rather it discusses 'how a being is defined' or to what degree the Designation 'being' can be used.

Do both the physical kandhas and mental kandhas under go jara?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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