SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:16 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:11 pm
Of course dependent origination can be discerned without jhanas. :smile:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.28/en/sujato
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:14 pm
I wrote "see"
Makes no difference. Jhana is not required to see dependent origination directly. This appears to show you overestimate what jhana is. Regardless, this does not demonstrate you know what dependent origination actually is.

Therefore, returning to the topic of SN 12.10 & SN 12.65, these suttas appear to not say Gotama used "jhana" for his breakthrough.

We are back to square one. After your departure into myriad topics, the question still not has been resolved as to whether SN 12.10 & SN 12.65 are about Full Enlightenment, as the Budo on the other forum claimed.

:smile:
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm
Hence the Buddha did this here to attain Arahantship:
From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form doesn't exist when consciousness doesn't exist. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness doesn't exist when what doesn't exist? From the cessation of what comes the cessation of consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness doesn't exist when name-&-form doesn't exist. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness.'
-SN 12.65
The above is the topic discussion and the above appears incorrect. SN 12.65 does not appear to say the Buddha used yoniso manasikara to attain Arahantship. SN 12.65 appears to say Gotama used yoniso manasikara to make a "breakthrough".

:smile:
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm
You need Yoniso Maniskara to attain jhanas by overcoming the 5 hindrances.

As in SN 46.51

You also need Proper Attention to attend to fourth satipathhana, as the Awakening Factor (bojjhanga) of Mindfulness is remembering to put your attention on the dhamma (4th satipatthana) in order to contemplate it:
The above shows Yoniso Maniskara is a preliminary practise. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:27 pm

arguing is not the path to awakening……

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:45 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:27 pm
arguing is not the path to awakening……
Maybe but when SN 12.10 & SN 12.65 use the term "yoniso manasikara", it appears to refer to "thinking". They say:
The thought occurred to me, 'Aging & death exist when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there aging & death?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Aging & death exist when birth exists. From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Birth exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes birth?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Birth exists when becoming exists. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... 'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'
The above text appears to clearly describe Gotama was "thinking" rather than exclusively "directly seeing".

My impression is Budo is asserting Gotama "thought" his way to Arahantship & that "jhanas" involve "thinking".

In summary, it appears the term "yoniso manasikara" may be used in different ways in the suttas, possibly at times referring to direct seeing. But in the contexts of SN 12.10 & SN 12.65, the term appears to refer to or include the use of "active thinking" or "reasoning" & "hypothesising".

:smile:
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:53 pm

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:45 pm
My impression is Budo is asserting Gotama "thought" his way to Arahantship & that "jhanas" involve "thinking".
Perhaps instead he was "seeing", using paticcasamuppāda as his frame.

For additional context on the link between yoniso manasikārā and paticcasamuppāda, I present the following from Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons...
Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā, tesaṃ hetuṃ tathāgato āha. "Of things that arise from a cause, their cause the Tathāgata has told."

When a wise man hears that something has arisen due to causes and conditions, he immediately understands that it could be made to cease by the removal of those conditions, even without further explanation. It is the dustless stainless Dhamma-eye that enables one to see the Nibbānic solution in the very structure of the saṃsāric problem.

In our quotation from the MahāNidānasutta it was said that all pathways for verbal expression, terminology and designation exist so long as the vortex of saṃsāra is kept going. The implication, therefore, is that they have no existence beyond it. This is the significance of the word ettāvatā, "in so far only".

Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jīyetha vā mīyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā.. "In so far only can one be born, or grow old, or die, or pass away, or reappear."

So the concepts of birth, decay-and-death, passing away and reappearing, are meaningful only in the context of the saṃsāric vortex between consciousness and name-and-form. If somehow or other this interrelation could be broken, this saṃsāric vortex, the whirlpool, could be stopped, then, after that, nothing remains to be said, nothing remains to be predicated. And as it is said in the Upasīvasutta of the Sutta Nipāta:

Yena naṃ vajju, taṃ tassa natthi, "that by which they would speak of him, that for him exists not".

There are a number of Canonical passages that show us the relevance of this vortex simile to the understanding of the doctrine of paṭicca samuppāda. In the MahāPadānasutta of the Dīgha Nikāya we find a lengthy description of the manner in which the bodhisatta Vipassī got an insight into paṭicca samuppāda. We are told that his mode of approach was one of radical reflection, or yoniso manasikāra, literally: "attention by way of the matrix". One might as well say that it is an attention by way of the vortex. It is as if a man with keen vision, sitting under a tree by a river, were to watch how a fallen leaf gets carried away by the water current, only to get whirled up and disappear in a vortex.

It is clearly stated in the case of Vipassī bodhisatta that his understanding through wisdom came as a result of 'radical reflection', yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo. So his insight into paṭicca samuppāda was definitely not due to recollection of past lives. Yoni means the 'matrix', or the 'place of origin'. So in yoniso manasikāra always the attention has to turn towards the place of origin.

So, true to this method, we find the bodhisatta Vipassī starting his reasoning from the very end of the paṭicca samuppāda formula: Kimhi nu kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, kiṃ paccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ? "Given what, does decay-and-death come to be, from which condition comes decay-and-death?" And to this question, the following answer occurred to him: Jātiyā kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ. "Given birth, does decay-and-death come to be, from birth as condition comes decay-and-death."

In the same manner, taking pair by pair, he went on reasoning progressively. For instance his next question was: Kimhi nu kho sati jāti hoti, kiṃ paccayā jāti? "Given what, does birth come to be, from which condition comes birth?" And the answer to it was: Bhave kho sati jāti hoti, bhavapaccayā jāti. "Given becoming, birth comes to be, from becoming as condition comes birth."

He went on reasoning like this up to and including name-and-form. But when he came to consciousness, he had to turn back. When he searched for the condition of consciousness, he found that name-and-form itself is the condition, whereby he understood their interdependence, and then he gave expression to the significance of this discovery in the following words:

Paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇaṃ nāmarūpamhā, nāparaṃ gacchati. Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jīyetha vā mīyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṃ nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṃ, nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ, saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā taṇhā, taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ, upādānapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassūpāyāsā sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.

By means of radical reflection the bodhisatta Vipassī understood that all concepts of birth, decay-and-death converge on the relationship between consciousness and name-and-form:

"This consciousness turns back from name-and-form, it does not go beyond. In so far can one be born, or grow old, or die, or pass away, or reappear, in so far as this is, namely: consciousness is dependent on name-and-form, and name-and-form on consciousness; dependent on name-and-form, the six sense-bases; dependent on the six sense-bases, contact; dependent on contact, feeling; dependent on feeling, craving; dependent on craving, grasping; dependent on grasping, becoming; dependent on becoming, birth; and dependent on birth, decay-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come to be. Thus is the arising of this entire mass of suffering."

The fact that this understanding of paṭicca samuppāda signified the arising of the Dhamma-eye in Vipassī bodhisatta is stated in the following words:

Samudayo samudayo'ti kho, bhikkhave, Vipassissa bodhisattassa pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi. "'Arising, arising', thus, O! monks, in regard to things unheard of before, there arose in the bodhisatta Vipassī the eye, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light."

In the same way it is said that the bodhisatta clarified for himself the cessation aspect through radical reflection: Kimhi nu kho asati jarāmaraṇaṃ na hoti, kissa nirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ nirodho? "In the absence of what, will decay-and-death not be, with the cessation of what, is the cessation of decay-and-death?" And as the answer to it, the following thought occurred to him: Jātiyā kho asati jarāmaraṇaṃ na hoti, jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃnirodho. "In the absence of birth, there is no decay-and-death, with the cessation of birth is the cessation of decay-and-death."

Likewise he went on reflecting progressively, until he reached the link between name-and-form and consciousness, and then it occurred to him:

Nāmarūpanirodhā viññāṇanirodho, viññāṇanirodhā nāma-rūpanirodho. "From the cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form."

Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness, then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact and feeling, come to cease immediately.

The MahāPadānasutta goes on to say that the bodhisatta Vipassī continued to dwell seeing the arising and passing away of the five grasping groups and that before long his mind was fully emancipated from the influxes and that he attained to full enlightenment. It is also said in the sutta in this connection that the bodhisatta followed this mode of reflection, because he understood that it is the way of insight leading to awakening:

Adhigato kho myāyaṃ vipassanā maggo bodhāya. "I have found this path of insight to awakening, to enlightenment."
Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:20 am

this path of insight to awakening
insight = awakening

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:52 am

Ven. Nanananda wrote: It is clearly stated in the case of Vipassī bodhisatta that his understanding through wisdom came as a result of 'radical reflection', yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo. So his insight into paṭicca samuppāda was definitely not due to recollection of past lives. Yoni means the 'matrix', or the 'place of origin'. So in yoniso manasikāra always the attention has to turn towards the place of origin.

So, true to this method, we find the bodhisatta Vipassī starting his reasoning from the very end of the paṭicca samuppāda formula: Kimhi nu kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, kiṃ paccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ? "Given what, does decay-and-death come to be, from which condition comes decay-and-death?" And to this question, the following answer occurred to him: Jātiyā kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ. "Given birth, does decay-and-death come to be, from birth as condition comes decay-and-death."

In the same manner, taking pair by pair, he went on reasoning progressively. For instance his next question was: Kimhi nu kho sati jāti hoti, kiṃ paccayā jāti? "Given what, does birth come to be, from which condition comes birth?" And the answer to it was: Bhave kho sati jāti hoti, bhavapaccayā jāti. "Given becoming, birth comes to be, from becoming as condition comes birth."

He went on reasoning like this up to and including name-and-form.....

In the same way it is said that the bodhisatta clarified for himself the cessation aspect through radical reflection: Kimhi nu kho asati jarāmaraṇaṃ na hoti, kissa nirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ nirodho? "In the absence of what, will decay-and-death not be, with the cessation of what, is the cessation of decay-and-death?" And as the answer to it, the following thought occurred to him: Jātiyā kho asati jarāmaraṇaṃ na hoti, jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃnirodho. "In the absence of birth, there is no decay-and-death, with the cessation of birth is the cessation of decay-and-death."

Likewise he went on reflecting progressively, until he reached the link between name-and-form and consciousness, and then it occurred to him:

Nāmarūpanirodhā viññāṇanirodho, viññāṇanirodhā nāma-rūpanirodho. "From the cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form."

Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness, then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact and feeling, come to cease immediately.

The MahāPadānasutta goes on to say that the bodhisatta Vipassī continued to dwell seeing the arising and passing away of the five grasping groups and that before long his mind was fully emancipated from the influxes and that he attained to full enlightenment. It is also said in the sutta in this connection that the bodhisatta followed this mode of reflection, because he understood that it is the way of insight leading to awakening:

Adhigato kho myāyaṃ vipassanā maggo bodhāya. "I have found this path of insight to awakening, to enlightenment."
Thanks Paul. The above sounds essentially the same as I have posted. The above appears to distinguish between "yoniso manasikara" as "reasoning" in the context of SN 12.10 & SN 12.65 and "seeing" ("ānupassī") arising and passing away of clung to aggregates for Full Enlightenment. :smile:
Then, through proper attention, Vipassī comprehended with wisdom:

Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo:

‘When rebirth exists there’s old age and death. Rebirth is a condition for old age and death.’

‘jātiyā kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti.

Then Vipassī thought:

Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa etadahosi:

I have discovered the path to awakening. That is: When name and form cease, consciousness ceases.... etc ....

.... That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.’ Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti’.

Some time later Vipassī meditated observing (ānupassī) rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates.

Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassī bodhisatto aparena samayena pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī vihāsi:

Meditating like this his mind was soon freed from defilements by not grasping.

tassa pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassino viharato na cirasseva anupādāya āsavehi cittaṃ vimuccīti.

https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato
Therefore, using DN 14 as the guide, the impression is in SN 12.65:

1. Gotama used "yoniso manasikara" ("radicalized reasoning") to discover the Path to Awakening

2. Gotama used "ānupassī" ("close watching") to achieve Full Awakening.

Therefore, SN 12.65 appears to show this type or genre of "yoniso manasikara" ("radicalized reasoning") in SN 12.65 is essential for puthujjana.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:53 pm

It is clearly stated in the case of Vipassī bodhisatta that his understanding through wisdom came as a result of 'radical reflection', yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo. So his insight into paṭicca samuppāda was definitely not due to recollection of past lives. Yoni means the 'matrix', or the 'place of origin'. So in yoniso manasikāra always the attention has to turn towards the place of origin.


."
Metta,
Paul. :)
To add onto your quote.

Gotama met at least 2 other Buddhas in his past lives. He ordained under kassapa Buddha after refusing to even meet him at first, but his good friend who forced him by grabbing his hair was already a non-returner.

This means Gotama already heard the four noble truths before, and also the first knowledge he attained in the first quarter of the night was recollection of past lives, therefore he recollected the 4NT.

However, speech is just theory. As soon you try to describe your experience to someone else it loses all sensory data and is converted to conceptual "pointers". Pointers on their own are empty, if the pointers don't point to a reference sensory data then it doesn't mean anything to the receiver of the theory.

It's like I'm zipping up all the shortcuts on my desktop and emailing them to you. Of course they won't work on your computer because you don't have the actual data.

Therefore one must use their own six sense base and consciousness to collect their own data, but first one must have theory.

"Proper" is the dhamma pointing the attention and concentrating the 6 senses on an object that will lead to data that is wisdom. First one needs to know where and what to look for, that's what makes it proper.

If your microscope is not clean and not calibrated then the light of the mind will scatter and dillute and one cannot focus or concentrate with one pointedness, so the better the jhanas, the better the image, the better they can see dependent orgination and all the defilements. Hence the Buddha wanted to teach his jhana teachers first before the group of 5, because they already had perfect microscopes. They just needed to know where to point them, the final proper attention, such as the dhamma, dependent origination and the destruction of craving, contact and ignorance.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:28 am

To expand further,

Gotama as a child already had a good microscope, he had first jhana. So if he already heard the 4NT from previous Buddhas and already had first Jhana, then he was probably a stream winner at minimum and once returner at maximum.

Once he mastered the jhanas completely under his 2 teachers he was ready for Arahantship. He remembered his childhood memory of the microscope (first jhana) and used those Jhanas to remember the dhamma and retain the pointers.

Combined with his new jhana mastery skills Arahantship was instant.

Hence those who had mastered all jhanas before hearing the dhamma instantly became Arahants. Therefore it is someone's jhana mastery level that determines their attainment upon hearing the dhamma.

This is my theory based on my understanding and experience of reading many suttas and meditating many years, and it goes much much deeper (such as body tension) but I would have to write a book about it instead of a forum post.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:51 am

budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:10 am
This means Gotama already heard the four noble truths before...
Not according to the core suttas.
Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination, origination.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.

SN 12.65
Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.'

SN 56.11
:alien:
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:10 am
also the first knowledge he attained in the first quarter of the night was recollection of past lives, therefore he recollected the 4NT.
The Pali "pubbenivasa" does not appear to mean "past lives". The Pali "nivasa", "nivesa" or "vasa" appears to not mean "life" or "lives". For example, the word "abhi-nivesa" means "adherences". SN 22.79 appears to be the only sutta that actually explains what recollection of "pubbenivasa" actually is. SN 22.79 appears to be simply about recollecting how when the past the mind ignorantly clung to one or more of the aggregates as "self".
budo wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:28 am
Once he mastered the jhanas completely under his 2 teachers he was ready for Arahantship.
The suttas describe different methods, particularly from non-Buddhist teachers, that lead to the sphere of nothingness, Therefore, we have no evidence exactly what Gotama's 1st teacher taught him. That is, there is no evidence Gotama reached something called "sphere of nothingness" in MN 26 by first practising the lower jhanas. This is the dilemma or contradiction between MN 26 (two teachers of arupa jhana) and MN 36 (remembering jhana of childhood).
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by pegembara » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:03 am

Consider the The Discourse on Anatta.

Did the Buddha then guide the five disciples using yoniso manasikara to attain awakening?
"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'

"Feeling is not self...

"Perception is not self...

"[Mental] fabrications are not self...

"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'

"What do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And direct seeing.
"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Any feeling whatsoever...

"Any perception whatsoever...

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:13 am

DooDoot wrote: The Pali "pubbenivasa" does not appear to mean "past lives"
there are no past lives?

then you don't need this teaching

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:22 am

Greetings cappuccino,
DooDoot wrote: The Pali "pubbenivasa" does not appear to mean "past lives"
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:13 am
there are no past lives?

then you don't need this teaching
To say that A isn't about B, says nothing whatsoever about the truth or falsity of B.

Please think before you post.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:26 am

retrofuturist wrote: Please think before you post.
I think this teaching is trivial if there aren't past & future lives

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:29 am

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:26 am
retrofuturist wrote: Please think before you post.
I think this teaching is trivial if there aren't past & future lives
Please think about whether you are on topic before you post.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:35 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:45 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:27 pm
arguing is not the path to awakening……
Maybe but when SN 12.10 & SN 12.65 use the term "yoniso manasikara", it appears to refer to "thinking". They say:
The thought occurred to me, 'Aging & death exist when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there aging & death?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Aging & death exist when birth exists. From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Birth exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes birth?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Birth exists when becoming exists. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... 'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'
The above text appears to clearly describe Gotama was "thinking" rather than exclusively "directly seeing".

My impression is Budo is asserting Gotama "thought" his way to Arahantship & that "jhanas" involve "thinking".

In summary, it appears the term "yoniso manasikara" may be used in different ways in the suttas, possibly at times referring to direct seeing. But in the contexts of SN 12.10 & SN 12.65, the term appears to refer to or include the use of "active thinking" or "reasoning" & "hypothesising".

:smile:
In the above passages a breakthrough of discernment results from appropriate attention, following an initial thought or intellectual observation (reasoning).

This suggests that appropriate attention is more than the initial intellectual understanding based on thought. Or that yoniso manaskira has a range of meaning, based on
context.

It would be interesting to explore the relationship between anupassi and yoniso manaskira. Possibly the latter is a development of the former, first noticing both wholesome and unwholesome, and then applying Right Effort.

As a general observation, the meaning of words is always dependent on context, and yoniso manaskira might well have different connotations in different suttas. It could well have a range of meanings.

So in answer to your OP question - Yes, he probably did, since the breakthrough of discernment resulted from yoniso manaskira.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
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