SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
budo
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm

It's quite simple.

DooDoot wrote:
lol - the above is not arahantship.

obviously no jhana

everything posted above seems to apply to the Budo guy or girl
https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comm ... s/eqt59ma/

But you will see now how he lacks logical thinking.

You need Yoniso Maniskara to attain jhanas by overcoming the 5 hindrances.

As in SN 46.51
“Mendicants, I will teach you what fuels and what starves the five hindrances and the seven awakening factors. Listen … And what fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow? There is the feature of beauty. Frequent improper attention to that fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow.
You also need Proper Attention to attend to fourth satipathhana, as the Awakening Factor (bojjhanga) of Mindfulness is remembering to put your attention on the dhamma (4th satipatthana) in order to contemplate it:
Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness (Sati) is aroused by the monk; on that occasion the monk develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfillment by development in the monk.”
- SN 46.3

Hence the Buddha did this here to attain Arahantship:
From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form doesn't exist when consciousness doesn't exist. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness doesn't exist when what doesn't exist? From the cessation of what comes the cessation of consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness doesn't exist when name-&-form doesn't exist. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness.'
-SN 12.65

And when does the Buddha say you should place your attention on Dependent Origination (the dhamma)? After attaining jhanas, in fact it's the last form of Samadhi out of the 4 Samadhis as shown in the Samadhi sutta, the first Samadhi is the 4 jhanas:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
- AN 4.41

Hence the Buddha says that here in MN2:
“Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know and see. Who knows and sees what? Wise attention and unwise attention. When one attends unwisely, unarisen taints arise and arisen taints increase. When one attends wisely, unarisen taints do not arise and arisen taints are abandoned.

“He attends wisely: ‘This is suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing.”
Last edited by budo on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:47 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm
Of course he calls every sutta that proves him wrong "Fake" as his last retort, he's done this over 10 times already.[/b]
Sorry, but the sutta quote you highlighted says:
They properly attend: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.

So ‘idaṃ dukkhan’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yoniso manasi karoti.

And as they do so, they give up three fetters:
Tassa evaṃ yoniso manasikaroto tīṇi saṃyojanāni pahīyanti—

identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.
sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso.

These are called the defilements that should be given up by seeing.
Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, āsavā dassanā pahātabbā.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:50 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:40 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:39 pm
Kindly explain your point (apart from the triviality that there is more text between the quoted paragraphs).
My impression is Budo edited the text to correlate "yoniso manasikara" with "seeing" ("dassanā").

Obviously, excluding many paragraphs of texts is not something "trivial".
It saves space here. I presume Budo simply overlooked adding "...". You might have politely asked him about that...

In any case, part of the first quoted paragraph is:
When you pay proper attention, defilements don’t arise, and those that have already arisen are given up.
yoniso ca kho, bhikkhave, manasikaroto anuppannā ceva āsavā na uppajjanti, uppannā ca āsavā pahīyanti.
https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato#3.5
Part of the second quoted paragraph is:
They properly attend: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.
So ‘idaṃ dukkhan’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yoniso manasi karoti.
https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato#11.1
"yoniso manasikara" appears in both.

:heart:
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budo
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:47 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm
Of course he calls every sutta that proves him wrong "Fake" as his last retort, he's done this over 10 times already.[/b]
Sorry, but the sutta quote you highlighted says:
They properly attend: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.

So ‘idaṃ dukkhan’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yoniso manasi karoti.

And as they do so, they give up three fetters:
Tassa evaṃ yoniso manasikaroto tīṇi saṃyojanāni pahīyanti—

identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.
sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso.

These are called the defilements that should be given up by seeing.
Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, āsavā dassanā pahātabbā.
Continue calling what you don't agree with "Fake". I've already shown you to be wrong on your claim that it is preliminary, and also your claim that proper attention doesn't involve jhanas.

In fact appropriate attention to 4 nimittas is required for attaining different jhanas.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:56 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:51 pm
I've already shown you to be wrong on your claim that it is preliminary
No. The quote from MN 2 says the yoniso manasikara leads to stream-entry. This is obviously "preliminary".
“He attends wisely: ‘This is suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing.
:candle:
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:51 pm
and also your claim that proper attention doesn't involve jhanas.
Where?
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:58 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:56 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:51 pm
I've already shown you to be wrong on your claim that it is preliminary
No. The quote from MN 2 says the yoniso manasikara leads to stream-entry. This is obviously "preliminary".

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:51 pm
and also your claim that proper attention doesn't involve jhanas.
Where?
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=34559&p=516097#p516094

Looks like you deleted your post claiming I "faked" the sutta. Pathetic. Mods, why is this user still allowed to post here? He is banned on countless forums.
Last edited by budo on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:58 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:58 pm
Looks like you deleted your post claiming I "faked" the sutta. Pathetic.
You definitely faked the sutta but omitting passages of a sutta that distinguishes many types of practises and uses the words "yoniso" and "manasikara" in many different & varied ways.

As for the comment made on the other forum about "jhana", my impression of this comment was the poster was suggesting the other guy named "Budo" with the same user name as you had not attained jhana.

The above said, it appears there is no "yoniso manasikara" in jhana. For example MN 111 on refers to "manasikara" in jhana.

I think you need to define what "yoniso manasikara" is.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:05 pm

Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

budo
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:05 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:58 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:58 pm
Looks like you deleted your post claiming I "faked" the sutta. Pathetic.
You definitely faked the sutta but omitting passages of a sutta that distinguishes many types of practises and uses the words "yoniso" and "manasikara" in many different & varied ways.

As for the comment made on the other forum about "jhana", my impression of this comment was the poster was suggesting the other guy named "Budo" had not attained jhana.
You're the one who claimed it's a preliminary practice which doesn't involve jhanas, not me.

So not pasting the relevant part is "faking"? Why didn't you post the relevant parts about Arahantship using Yoniso Maniskara here on page 2? viewtopic.php?f=29&t=34559&start=15#p516074

Don't try to derail the thread, as usual.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:07 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:05 pm
You're the one who claimed it's a preliminary practice which doesn't involve jhanas, not me.
In AN 10.61 and SN 45.55, when placed together with the Path factors, it is a preliminary practice. It is called "The Dawn" preceding the "Rising of the Sun".
Bhikkhus, this is the forerunner and precursor of the rising of the sun, that is, the dawn. So too, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu this is the forerunner and precursor for the arising of the Noble Eightfold Path, that is, accomplishment in virtue … accomplishment in desire … accomplishment in self … accomplishment in view … accomplishment in diligence … … accomplishment in careful attention. When a bhikkhu is accomplished in careful attention, it is to be expected that he will develop and cultivate this Noble Eightfold Path.

“And how does a bhikkhu who is accomplished in careful attention develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops right view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release…. He develops right concentration, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu who is accomplished in careful attention develops and cultivates the Noble Eightfold Path.”
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:08 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:07 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:05 pm
You're the one who claimed it's a preliminary practice which doesn't involve jhanas, not me.
In AN 10.61 and SN 45.55, when placed together with the Path facts, it is a preliminary practice. It is called "The Dawn" preceding the "Rising of the Sun".
Yes it is, and it continues to be developed all the way until the end. What you're doing is called "cherry picking" by taking one sutta and generalizing it to everything. One need to read a lot more suttas to understand context and the entire dhamma, not just one sutta.

Once again, you're the only who claimed it is ONLY an a preliminary practice, not me.
Last edited by budo on Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:09 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:08 pm
Yes it is, and it continues to be developed all the way until the end.
Non-sense.
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:08 pm
What you're doing is called "cherry picking" by taking one sutta and generalizing it to everything. One need to read a lot more suttas to understand context and the entire dhamma, not just one sutta.
Actually, it is you that is "cherry picking" by quoting suttas where "yoniso manasikara" is discussed separate from the Path factors.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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budo
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:10 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:09 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:08 pm
Yes it is, and it continues to be developed all the way until the end.
Non-sense.
Says the person who claims that one can see dependent origination without jhanas, because you claim yonsio maniksara doesn't involve jhanas, and you have been clearly shown to be wrong, time and time again.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:11 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:10 pm
Says the person who claims that one can see dependent origination without jhanas,
Of course dependent origination can be discerned without jhanas. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:14 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:11 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:10 pm
Says the person who claims that one can see dependent origination without jhanas,
Of course dependent origination can be discerned without jhanas. :smile:
I wrote "see"

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