SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:58 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:54 pm
Silavant Sutta
Thank you Cappuccino. The above sutta appears too general for finding a conclusive answer to the topic because, unlike SN 45.55 or AN 10.61, it does not mention yoniso manasikara in relation to other dhammas:
“Reverend Sāriputta, what things should an ethical mendicant properly attend to?”

sīlavatāvuso, sāriputta, bhikkhunā katame dhammā yoniso manasikātabbā”ti?

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, an ethical mendicant should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.

It’s possible that an ethical mendicant who regards the five grasping aggregates in this way will realize the fruit of stream-entry.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato
Similar to the warning of Santa100, SN 22.122 may give the impression the only practise required for Arahantship is yoniso manasikara. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:05 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:58 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:54 pm
Silavant Sutta
Thank you Cappuccino. The above sutta appears too general for finding a conclusive answer to the topic because, unlike SN 45.55 or AN 10.61, it does not mention yoniso manasikara in relation to other dhammas:
“Reverend Sāriputta, what things should an ethical mendicant properly attend to?”

sīlavatāvuso, sāriputta, bhikkhunā katame dhammā yoniso manasikātabbā”ti?

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, an ethical mendicant should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.

It’s possible that an ethical mendicant who regards the five grasping aggregates in this way will realize the fruit of stream-entry.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato
Seems like you don't understand the suttas, perhaps you should not cut out a portion of the entire sutta and instead read the entire sutta.
"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

Arahatāpi kho, āvuso koṭṭhika, ime pañcupādānakkhandhe aniccato dukkhato rogato gaṇḍato sallato aghato ābādhato parato palokato suññato anattato yoniso manasi kātabbā

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
Last edited by budo on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:05 pm

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, an ethical mendicant should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, … as not-self.

It’s possible that an ethical mendicant who regards the five grasping aggregates in this way will realize the fruit of stream-entry.”
this is right
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:06 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:05 pm
Seems like you don't understand the suttas, perhaps you should not cut out a portion of the entire sutta and instead read the entire sutta.
Certainly not. I read the entire sutta. As I posted, similar to the warning of Santa100, SN 22.122 may give the impression the only practise required for Arahantship is yoniso manasikara. As i posted:
the above sutta appears too general for finding a conclusive answer to the topic because, unlike SN 45.55 or AN 10.61, it does not mention yoniso manasikara in relation to other dhammas:
Also, the sutta does not appear to say yoniso manasikara is the "Path" the Arahantship. It only appears to ask the question: "Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

What exactly is "yoniso manasikara"? Is it a type of active thinking? :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:10 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:06 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:05 pm
Seems like you don't understand the suttas, perhaps you should not cut out a portion of the entire sutta and instead read the entire sutta.
Certainly not. I read the entire sutta. As I posted, similar to the warning of Santa100, SN 22.122 may give the impression the only practise required for Arahantship is yoniso manasikara. As i posted:
the above sutta appears too general for finding a conclusive answer to the topic because, unlike SN 45.55 or AN 10.61, it does not mention yoniso manasikara in relation to other dhammas:
What exactly is "yoniso manasikara"? Is it a type of active thinking? :shrug:
Regardless, you were certainly wrong that it is just a preliminary practice for beginners.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:13 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:10 pm
Regardless, you were certainly wrong that it is just a preliminary practice for beginners.
I think the following was certainly wrong:
The entire path is just a practice of Proper Attention (yoniso maniskara), from beginning to end. Even attaining jhanas, is strengthening yoniso manisakara.
Also, the sutta SN 22.122 does not appear to say yoniso manasikara is the "Path" the Arahantship. It only appears to ask the question: "Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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budo
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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:15 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:13 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:10 pm
Regardless, you were certainly wrong that it is just a preliminary practice for beginners.
I think the following was certainly wrong:
The entire path is just a practice of Proper Attention (yoniso maniskara), from beginning to end. Even attaining jhanas, is strengthening yoniso manisakara.
Also, the sutta SN 22.122 does not appear to say yoniso manasikara is the "Path" the Arahantship. It only appears to ask the question: "Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"
Just like you were certainly wrong about self-identity view being the same as the fetter of conceit, you are the again wrong with proper attention. This isn't the Koran doodoot, you can't just can't taqiyya the dhamma.

If you don't understand the suttas you should ask someone who does.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:16 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:15 pm
Just like you were certainly wrong about self-identity view being the same as the fetter of conceit, you are the same again with proper attention.
Unlikely.

The sutta SN 22.122 does not appear to say yoniso manasikara is the "Path" to Arahantship. It only appears to ask the question: "Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

SN 22.122 ends with: "Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness".

SN 22.122 does not end with:"proper attention, when developed and cultivated, leads to Full Enlightenment & Nibbana".

SN 22.122 does not contain the wrong view of:
The entire path is just a practice of Proper Attention (yoniso maniskara), from beginning to end. Even attaining jhanas, is strengthening yoniso manisakara.
Back to topic, so far, this discussion has found not evidence to support the following tenuous claim:
From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'

Does attaining full enlightenment sound preliminary to you?
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by budo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:21 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:16 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:15 pm
Just like you were certainly wrong about self-identity view being the same as the fetter of conceit, you are the same again with proper attention.
Unlikely.

The sutta SN 22.122 does not appear to say yoniso manasikara is the "Path" to Arahantship. It only appears to ask the question: "Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

SN 22.122 ends with: "Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness".

SN 22.122 does not end with:"proper attention, when developed and cultivated, leads to Full Enlightenment & Nibbana".

SN 22.122 does not contain the wrong view of:
The entire path is just a practice of Proper Attention (yoniso maniskara), from beginning to end. Even attaining jhanas, is strengthening yoniso manisakara.
Oh poor DootDoot, does removing the Asavas sounds preliminary to you?
“Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know and see. Who knows and sees what? Wise attention and unwise attention. When one attends unwisely, unarisen taints arise and arisen taints increase. When one attends wisely, unarisen taints do not arise and arisen taints are abandoned.

“He attends wisely: ‘This is suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/bodhi

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:25 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:21 pm
Oh poor DootDoot, does removing the Asavas sounds preliminary to you?
I will address the above soon. But the question of the topic is the following tenuous claim about SN 12.10 & SN 12.65:
From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'

Does attaining full enlightenment sound preliminary to you?
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:25 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:34 am
Dear DW forum

I recently visited a forum with the following post: ...
Rather than just copying part of your discussion to continue here, giving a link would be polite. That would save the rest of us some confusion...
https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/comm ... _teachers/

:heart:
Mike

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:36 pm

DooDoot wrote:
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:21 pm
Oh poor DootDoot, does removing the Asavas sounds preliminary to you?
“Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know and see. Who knows and sees what? Wise attention and unwise attention. When one attends unwisely, unarisen taints arise and arisen taints increase. When one attends wisely, unarisen taints do not arise and arisen taints are abandoned.

“He attends wisely: ‘This is suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; he attends wisely: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/bodhi
The above quote is fake.
So SuttaCentral has fake news/suttas? :jumping:

Mike

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:37 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:36 pm
So SuttaCentral has fake news/suttas?
Yes Mike. It is fake. It appears to be the creative editing of a sutta by Budo.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:39 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:37 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:36 pm
So SuttaCentral has fake news/suttas?
Yes. It is fake. It appears to be the creative editing of a sutta by Budo.
Kindly explain your point (apart from the triviality that there is more text between the quoted paragraphs).

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Re: SN 12.10 & SN 12.65: Did Gotama use yoniso manasikara to attain full enlightenment??

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:40 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:39 pm
Kindly explain your point (apart from the triviality that there is more text between the quoted paragraphs).
My impression is Budo edited the text to correlate "yoniso manasikara" with "arahantship"

Obviously, excluding many paragraphs of texts is not something "trivial".
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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