Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
ToVincent
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by ToVincent »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:46 am
ToVincent wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:32 amMN 111 does not even have a parallel.
Why would a Chinese parallel transmitted 100s of years later be relevant? Regardless, the dimension of nothingness includes the perception of nothingness; thus includes nama (perception).
?!?!?
Thank Buddha, we have those Chinese parallels that existed at his time (or just after), and were gratefully translated later on by the Chinese.

Because this gives us a very precious additional definition of "nāma". A concept that you do not seem to have yet grasped thoroughly.

There are indeed two definitions of nāma-rūpa. One in the Agamas (Chinese text), and one in the Nikayas (Pali text).

They are respectively in SA 298, and SN 12.2.
Also, in MN 9 & MĀ 29 (please see Analayo's " A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-nikāya - vol. 1 - page 70 + note # 220, for that matter).

Indeed, the two definitions are complemental, as seen on this visual aid.
https://justpaste.it/img/02a4de2cbca791 ... fc0f10.png

----

The Agama's definition is about the "not yet sensory/existential" khandhas in the nāmarūpa nidāna :

Coactions (determinations, formations)
Consciousness
Feelings
Perceptions

+
Forms (matter) = rūpa

Thank the Chinese for that.

-------

While the Nikayas give the following "existential" (that is to say a "satta kind") definition of nāma-rūpa.

What is Name-&-Form?
- Feelings
- Perceptions
- Intentions
- Contact
- Manasikara (mano kṛ),

is Name.

+
Forms (matter) = rūpa

--------

So, first, you have to be a bit more accurate when you say nāma (perception) ?!?

For nāma is a whole.
Perception is a khandha, not a nāma. It is part of nāma; but not "a" nāma.

And to go back to the point I was making previously, and about your dazzlingly skilled expostulations, like your brilliant "nāma (perception) " - may I add that, when you are in the "dimension of nothingness" (or more appropriately in the field of experience (ayatana) of nothingness), there is no "nāma" there.
"Not yet", when you "descend" paṭiccasamuppāda (as in SA 296; where you start with ignorance) - or "no more", when you "escape upwards" (as in SN 12.20; when you start with existence).
No manasikara (mano kṛ); not even consciousness any longer, in that "escape shebang". Nothing you can call nāma there.

Please, read me before you answer. And if you don't understand what I mean, please feel free to avoid replying. Rambling on, or red herring, are such heavy means, aren't they?
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sentinel
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel »

Srilankaputra wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:33 am



This not necessarily confined to the twelve nidanas. In Sammaditti sutta(MN9) alone, Ven Sariputta enumerate a number of different ways one might gain insight in to this truth. And there are many different versions of dependant originations in the suttas. And of course Ven Sariputta heard nothing of the twelve nidanas when he became a Sotapanna. He just heard 'ye dhamma hetuppabhava' .
Hello SP ,

What Sariputta heard actually synonym with the paticasamuppada .
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra »

sentinel wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:43 am
Srilankaputra wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:33 am



This not necessarily confined to the twelve nidanas. In Sammaditti sutta(MN9) alone, Ven Sariputta enumerate a number of different ways one might gain insight in to this truth. And there are many different versions of dependant originations in the suttas. And of course Ven Sariputta heard nothing of the twelve nidanas when he became a Sotapanna. He just heard 'ye dhamma hetuppabhava' .
Hello SP ,

What Sariputta heard actually synonym with the paticasamuppada .
Hi,

Do you mean the standard twelve link DO?

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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel »

Srilankaputra wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:58 pm


Hi,

Do you mean the standard twelve link DO?
Yes , they somehow already equipped with preliminary understanding of dhamma and just happen to realise it when being highlighted .
All of Buddha disciples appears to understand what is the meaning of five aggregates respectively without any explanation for example .
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra »

sentinel wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:15 am
Srilankaputra wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:58 pm


Hi,

Do you mean the standard twelve link DO?
Yes , they somehow already equipped with preliminary understanding of dhamma and just happen to realise it when being highlighted .
All of Buddha disciples appears to understand what is the meaning of five aggregates respectively without any explanation for example .
It's possible. What do you make of the following sutta. Which could be the original sutta that inspired Ven Sariputta in MN9.

Observation of Dualities (Dvayatānupassanā Sutta)
https://suttacentral.net/snp3.12/en/sujato

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel »

Srilankaputra wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:36 pm
sentinel wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:15 am
Srilankaputra wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:58 pm


Hi,

Do you mean the standard twelve link DO?
Yes , they somehow already equipped with preliminary understanding of dhamma and just happen to realise it when being highlighted .
All of Buddha disciples appears to understand what is the meaning of five aggregates respectively without any explanation for example .
It's possible. What do you make of the following sutta. Which could be the original sutta that inspired Ven Sariputta in MN9.

Observation of Dualities (Dvayatānupassanā Sutta)
https://suttacentral.net/snp3.12/en/sujato
Before proceed further ,
do you mind explaining (grasping at) views ?
What are the views ?




https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/sujato

But what is grasping? What is its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation? There are these four kinds of grasping. Grasping at sensual pleasures, views, precepts and observances, and theories of a self.
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra »

sentinel wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:09 am Before proceed further ,
do you mind explaining (grasping at) views ?
What are the views ?
I think it refers to any view(opinion) whatsoever conjoined with craving.
this walking in opinion,
wilderness of opinion,
puppet-show of opinion,
scuffling of opinion,
this Fetter of opinion,
the grip and tenacity of it,
the inclination towards it,
the being infected by it
-Dhammasaṅgaṇī

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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel »

Srilankaputra wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:45 am

I think it refers to any view(opinion) whatsoever conjoined with craving.
Yes, according to abhidhammakosa sastra , it consists of 62 type of views linked with craving including permanent entity view and annihilation view based on sakkaya ditti .

One question , why do you think dependent origination needs to include clinging to all of these (62)views , clinging to rituals , clinging to sensuality , clinging to the notion of self , everything in the basket ?

Do you notice that this is sort of systematic classification ?


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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra »

sentinel wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:29 pm One question , why do you think dependent origination needs to include clinging to all of these (62)views , clinging to rituals , clinging to sensuality , clinging to the notion of self , everything in the basket ?
In the MN9 there are sixteen independent methods described to achieve right view. Each of these sixteen methods serve as teachings on dependant origination and cessation. Twelve out of these sixteen methods treat each link of the standard DO separately .

so to answer your question, a teaching on dependant origination does not necessarily need to include the above.

Let me ask you this, how did Ven Aññā-Kondañña become a sotapanna on hearing the first sermon on the four noble truths?

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel »

Srilankaputra wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:04 pm
Let me ask you this, how did Ven Aññā-Kondañña become a sotapanna on hearing the first sermon on the four noble truths?

Venerable Kondanna attained dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”
So , it appears that kondanna realised the arising and vanishing of dhamma , hence the not self realisation which is the sotapanna .


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Re: Dhammavicaya sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot »

Returning to this topic, the only two suttas I could find that might explain dhammavicayasambojjhaṅga are:
And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of discrimination of states and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of discrimination of states?

Atthi, bhikkhave, kusalākusalā dhammā, sāvajjānavajjā dhammā, hīnapaṇītā dhammā, kaṇhasukkasappaṭibhāgā dhammā. There are, bhikkhus, wholesome and unwholesome states, blameable and blameless states, inferior and superior states, dark and bright states with their counterparts:

frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of discrimination of states and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of discrimination of states.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.2/en/bodhi
Bhikkhus, those bhikkhus who are accomplished in virtue, accomplished in concentration, accomplished in wisdom, accomplished in liberation, accomplished in the knowledge and vision of liberation: even the sight of those bhikkhus is helpful, I say; even listening to them … even approaching them … even attending on them … even recollecting them … even going forth after them is helpful, I say. For what reason? Because when one has heard the Dhamma from such bhikkhus one dwells withdrawn by way of two kinds of withdrawal—withdrawal of body and withdrawal of mind.

Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

Dwelling thus mindfully, he discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus mindfully discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/bodhi
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel »

The problem lies in one are not certain of the meaning of dhamma in 7foe and 4sp .
My understanding is both are not the same , if it does , the first factor of enlightenment would coincide with the second factor . Therefore , overlapping should not be the case .
The dhamma in 4sp is about the mindfulness meditation and the dhamma in 7foe is about the investigation in the dhamma as the factor that led one to enlightenment .
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