Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
ToVincent
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by ToVincent » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:19 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:46 am
ToVincent wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:32 am
MN 111 does not even have a parallel.
Why would a Chinese parallel transmitted 100s of years later be relevant? Regardless, the dimension of nothingness includes the perception of nothingness; thus includes nama (perception).
?!?!?
Thank Buddha, we have those Chinese parallels that existed at his time (or just after), and were gratefully translated later on by the Chinese.

Because this gives us a very precious additional definition of "nāma". A concept that you do not seem to have yet grasped thoroughly.

There are indeed two definitions of nāma-rūpa. One in the Agamas (Chinese text), and one in the Nikayas (Pali text).

They are respectively in SA 298, and SN 12.2.
Also, in MN 9 & MĀ 29 (please see Analayo's " A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-nikāya - vol. 1 - page 70 + note # 220, for that matter).

Indeed, the two definitions are complemental, as seen on this visual aid.
https://justpaste.it/img/02a4de2cbca791 ... fc0f10.png

----

The Agama's definition is about the "not yet sensory/existential" khandhas in the nāmarūpa nidāna :

Coactions (determinations, formations)
Consciousness
Feelings
Perceptions

+
Forms (matter) = rūpa

Thank the Chinese for that.

-------

While the Nikayas give the following "existential" (that is to say a "satta kind") definition of nāma-rūpa.

What is Name-&-Form?
- Feelings
- Perceptions
- Intentions
- Contact
- Manasikara (mano kṛ),

is Name.

+
Forms (matter) = rūpa

--------

So, first, you have to be a bit more accurate when you say nāma (perception) ?!?

For nāma is a whole.
Perception is a khandha, not a nāma. It is part of nāma; but not "a" nāma.

And to go back to the point I was making previously, and about your dazzlingly skilled expostulations, like your brilliant "nāma (perception) " - may I add that, when you are in the "dimension of nothingness" (or more appropriately in the field of experience (ayatana) of nothingness), there is no "nāma" there.
"Not yet", when you "descend" paṭiccasamuppāda (as in SA 296; where you start with ignorance) - or "no more", when you "escape upwards" (as in SN 12.20; when you start with existence).
No manasikara (mano kṛ); not even consciousness any longer, in that "escape shebang". Nothing you can call nāma there.

Please, read me before you answer. And if you don't understand what I mean, please feel free to avoid replying. Rambling on, or red herring, are such heavy means, aren't they?
Taciturnity is a valuable quality.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
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https://justpaste.it/j5o4

sentinel
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:43 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:33 am




This not necessarily confined to the twelve nidanas. In Sammaditti sutta(MN9) alone, Ven Sariputta enumerate a number of different ways one might gain insight in to this truth. And there are many different versions of dependant originations in the suttas. And of course Ven Sariputta heard nothing of the twelve nidanas when he became a Sotapanna. He just heard 'ye dhamma hetuppabhava' .
Hello SP ,

What Sariputta heard actually synonym with the paticasamuppada .
:buddha1:

Srilankaputra
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:58 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:43 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:33 am




This not necessarily confined to the twelve nidanas. In Sammaditti sutta(MN9) alone, Ven Sariputta enumerate a number of different ways one might gain insight in to this truth. And there are many different versions of dependant originations in the suttas. And of course Ven Sariputta heard nothing of the twelve nidanas when he became a Sotapanna. He just heard 'ye dhamma hetuppabhava' .
Hello SP ,

What Sariputta heard actually synonym with the paticasamuppada .
Hi,

Do you mean the standard twelve link DO?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

sentinel
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:15 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:58 pm



Hi,

Do you mean the standard twelve link DO?
Yes , they somehow already equipped with preliminary understanding of dhamma and just happen to realise it when being highlighted .
All of Buddha disciples appears to understand what is the meaning of five aggregates respectively without any explanation for example .
:buddha1:

Srilankaputra
Posts: 523
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:36 pm

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:15 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:58 pm



Hi,

Do you mean the standard twelve link DO?
Yes , they somehow already equipped with preliminary understanding of dhamma and just happen to realise it when being highlighted .
All of Buddha disciples appears to understand what is the meaning of five aggregates respectively without any explanation for example .
It's possible. What do you make of the following sutta. Which could be the original sutta that inspired Ven Sariputta in MN9.

Observation of Dualities (Dvayatānupassanā Sutta)
https://suttacentral.net/snp3.12/en/sujato
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

sentinel
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:09 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:36 pm
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:15 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:58 pm



Hi,

Do you mean the standard twelve link DO?
Yes , they somehow already equipped with preliminary understanding of dhamma and just happen to realise it when being highlighted .
All of Buddha disciples appears to understand what is the meaning of five aggregates respectively without any explanation for example .
It's possible. What do you make of the following sutta. Which could be the original sutta that inspired Ven Sariputta in MN9.

Observation of Dualities (Dvayatānupassanā Sutta)
https://suttacentral.net/snp3.12/en/sujato
Before proceed further ,
do you mind explaining (grasping at) views ?
What are the views ?




https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/sujato

But what is grasping? What is its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation? There are these four kinds of grasping. Grasping at sensual pleasures, views, precepts and observances, and theories of a self.
:buddha1:

Srilankaputra
Posts: 523
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Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:45 am

sentinel wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:09 am
Before proceed further ,
do you mind explaining (grasping at) views ?
What are the views ?
I think it refers to any view(opinion) whatsoever conjoined with craving.
this walking in opinion,
wilderness of opinion,
puppet-show of opinion,
scuffling of opinion,
this Fetter of opinion,
the grip and tenacity of it,
the inclination towards it,
the being infected by it
-Dhammasaṅgaṇī
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

sentinel
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:29 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:45 am


I think it refers to any view(opinion) whatsoever conjoined with craving.
Yes, according to abhidhammakosa sastra , it consists of 62 type of views linked with craving including permanent entity view and annihilation view based on sakkaya ditti .

One question , why do you think dependent origination needs to include clinging to all of these (62)views , clinging to rituals , clinging to sensuality , clinging to the notion of self , everything in the basket ?

Do you notice that this is sort of systematic classification ?


Regards
:buddha1:

Srilankaputra
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:04 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:29 pm
One question , why do you think dependent origination needs to include clinging to all of these (62)views , clinging to rituals , clinging to sensuality , clinging to the notion of self , everything in the basket ?
In the MN9 there are sixteen independent methods described to achieve right view. Each of these sixteen methods serve as teachings on dependant origination and cessation. Twelve out of these sixteen methods treat each link of the standard DO separately .

so to answer your question, a teaching on dependant origination does not necessarily need to include the above.

Let me ask you this, how did Ven Aññā-Kondañña become a sotapanna on hearing the first sermon on the four noble truths?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

sentinel
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by sentinel » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:43 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:04 pm

Let me ask you this, how did Ven Aññā-Kondañña become a sotapanna on hearing the first sermon on the four noble truths?

Venerable Kondanna attained dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”
So , it appears that kondanna realised the arising and vanishing of dhamma , hence the not self realisation which is the sotapanna .


Regards
:buddha1:

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