four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

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DooDoot
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:37 am

auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm
https://suttacentral.net/mn57/en/sujato
And what are dark deeds with dark results?

It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind.

Having made these choices, they’re reborn in a hurtful world,

So sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.

where hurtful contacts touch them.

Touched by hurtful contacts, they experience hurtful feelings that are exclusively painful—like the beings in hell.

This is how a being is born from a being.

Iti kho, puṇṇa, bhūtā bhūtassa upapatti hoti;

For your deeds determine your rebirth,

yaṃ karoti tena upapajjati,
Hi Auto

The Pali word "upapajjati" does not appear to literally means "rebirth". It appears to literally mean "to proceed from" or "to follow from".

For example, the Pali word "upapajjati" is found in MN 148, as follows:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not tenable.

‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,

Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
It appears the quote above from MN 148 should be literally translated as follows:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that does not proceed/follow.

‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,

Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
Therefore, MN 57 is possibly literally translated as follows:
And what are dark deeds with dark results?

Katamañca, puṇṇa, kammaṃ kaṇhaṃ kaṇhavipākaṃ?

It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind.

Idha, puṇṇa, ekacco sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti.

Having made these choices, it follows they proceed to a hurtful world,

So sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.
In other words, despite Cappuccino's objections, it appears a "here-&-now upapajjati" is possible.

Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:57 am

auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm
This is how a being is born from a being.

Iti kho, puṇṇa, bhūtā bhūtassa upapatti hoti;
it seem being can born from a being and it can be also literal like birth from a womb.
Hi Auto

I think the above quote is a good topic for the Pali forum because the Pali word "bhūtā" appears to have various meanings & uses. Possibly the text is something as follows:
This is how what came to be proceeded from what had come to be.

Iti kho, puṇṇa, bhūtā bhūtassa upapatti hoti;

I started a new related topic about this, here.

Regards & thank you for starting this topic :anjali:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:09 am

The idea that death can be followed by birth was not universally accepted in India in the Buddha's time.

Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:19 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:09 am
The idea that death can be followed by birth was not universally accepted in India in the Buddha's time.

Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta
My impression is Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta teaches birth is followed by death. To quote:
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death...
:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:20 am

"'From the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging-&-death': Thus was it said. Now, monks, is it the case that from the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging-&-death, or not, or how is it here?"

"Lord, from the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging-&-death. That's how it is for us here: From the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging-&-death."
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:35 am

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by sentinel » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:19 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:53 am

There is no realm for states of mind.
chownah
Please explain what you mean by that .

Thanks
:buddha1:

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by chownah » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:17 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:54 am
chownah wrote:
cappuccino wrote: like all states of mind, there is a realm for those states of mind
There is no realm for states of mind.
The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka) consists of sixteen realms whose inhabitants (the devas) experience extremely refined degrees of mental pleasure. These realms are accessible to those who have attained at least some level of jhana

Planes of Existence
Your link does not show a realm for states of mind in the fine matierial world.
chownah

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:39 pm

chownah wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
chownah wrote:
There is no realm for states of mind.
The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka) consists of sixteen realms whose inhabitants (the devas) experience extremely refined degrees of mental pleasure. These realms are accessible to those who have attained at least some level of jhana

Planes of Existence
Your link does not show a realm for states of mind in the fine matierial world.
chownah
you misunderstood what I was trying to say
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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:04 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:55 pm
auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm
literal rebirth case:

https://suttacentral.net/an6.57/en/sujato

abhijātiyo
Does not sound like rebirth or reincarnation to me. Bhikkhu Bodhi simply translates "abhijātiyo" as "class".
in that same sutta,
When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.
So kāyena duccaritaṃ caritvā, vācāya duccaritaṃ caritvā, manasā duccaritaṃ caritvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapajjati.
that above is why i think it is literally a birth to the niraya. Literally in a sense of actually taking birth not just getting to know what hell beings feel.

the not-literal mean the upadhivepakko

https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato
There is right livelihood that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment. atthi, bhikkhave, sammāājīvo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko;
https://suttacentral.net/mn98/en/sujato
Anyone among humans Yo hi koci manussesu,
who lives off keeping cattle: gorakkhaṃ upajīvati;
know them, Vāseṭṭha, Evaṃ vāseṭṭha jānāhi,
as a farmer, not a brahmin. kassako so na brāhmaṇo.
lives of(upajīvati). Then from that comes jānāhi and its called accordingly, in this case a farmer. When being a farmer and drinking milk it feels good, like the beings in heaven feel good.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:27 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:37 am
auto wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:20 pm
https://suttacentral.net/mn57/en/sujato
And what are dark deeds with dark results?

It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind.

Having made these choices, they’re reborn in a hurtful world,

So sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.

where hurtful contacts touch them.

Touched by hurtful contacts, they experience hurtful feelings that are exclusively painful—like the beings in hell.

This is how a being is born from a being.

Iti kho, puṇṇa, bhūtā bhūtassa upapatti hoti;

For your deeds determine your rebirth,

yaṃ karoti tena upapajjati,
Hi Auto

The Pali word "upapajjati" does not appear to literally means "rebirth". It appears to literally mean "to proceed from" or "to follow from".

For example, the Pali word "upapajjati" is found in MN 148, as follows:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not tenable.

‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,

Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
It appears the quote above from MN 148 should be literally translated as follows:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that does not proceed/follow.

‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,

Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
Therefore, MN 57 is possibly literally translated as follows:
And what are dark deeds with dark results?

Katamañca, puṇṇa, kammaṃ kaṇhaṃ kaṇhavipākaṃ?

It’s when someone makes hurtful choices by way of body, speech, and mind.

Idha, puṇṇa, ekacco sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti.

Having made these choices, it follows they proceed to a hurtful world,

So sabyābajjhaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharitvā, sabyābajjhaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.
In other words, despite Cappuccino's objections, it appears a "here-&-now upapajjati" is possible.

Regards :smile:
upa = pre.

sankharas will result in prerebirth like experiences. It could be reference to bhava. So i think upapajjati is not rebirth but refer to bhava.


yaṃ karoti tena upapajjati - determinations deter the rebirth, changing your way of life will result in different rebirth, by bhava you can see what kind of rebirth.

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:00 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:58 pm
your problem is solved if rebirth isn't true

hence the entire teaching is just optional
So quick to spam with personal unsubstantiated comments. Regardless if you ideas about "rebirth" are true or not, it appears "abhijātiyo" does not mean "rebirth".

:focus:
With reference to paticca samuppada , it is clear that "Me" is just a particle in a process. We have no idea when the process started & this process as explained is a reaction of pancendriya along with our clinging to desires. In paticca samuppada there is no rebirth mentioned but birth and death with suffering as a cause of tanha and upadana ( desires and clinging to desires)
and then the continuation of cycles of process from avidya to jara marana until it ceases as nirvana .

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:36 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:37 am

The Pali word "upapajjati" does not appear to literally means "rebirth". It appears to literally mean "to proceed from" or "to follow from".

For example, the Pali word "upapajjati" is found in MN 148, as follows:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not tenable.

‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,

Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
what about attabhāvapaṭilābho

https://suttacentral.net/an4.171/en/sujato
Mendicants, there are four kinds of reincarnation. Cattārome, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābhā.
What four? Katame cattāro?
There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.
There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective, not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.
There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.
There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.
reincarnation seem to be into certain realm and passing away there.
Take the case of the reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not that of others. Those sentient beings pass away from that realm due to their own intention. ‘tatra, bhante, yāyaṃ attabhāvapaṭilābho yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati no parasañcetanā, attasañcetanāhetu tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhā kāyā cuti hoti.
..
But sir, in the case of the reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective, what kind of gods does this refer to?” Tatra, bhante, yāyaṃ attabhāvapaṭilābho yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe neva attasañcetanā kamati no parasañcetanā, katame tena devā daṭṭhabbā’”ti?
hmm returning to this state of existence?
“Sāriputta, it refers to the gods reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.” “Nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpagā, sāriputta, devā tena daṭṭhabbā”ti.
“What is the cause, sir, what is the reason why some sentient beings pass away from that realm as returners who come back to this state of existence, “Ko nu kho, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena m’idhekacce sattā tamhā kāyā cutā āgāmino honti āgantāro itthattaṃ?
the 3rd pather, non-returner?
while others are non-returners who don’t come back?” Ko pana, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena m’idhekacce sattā tamhā kāyā cutā anāgāmino honti anāgantāro itthattan”ti?
jhanas in present life:
“Sāriputta, take a person who hasn’t given up the lower fetters. In the present life they enter and abide in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. “Idha, sāriputta, ekaccassa puggalassa orambhāgiyāni saṃyojanāni appahīnāni honti, so diṭṭheva dhamme nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.
They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying. So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati;
when they die they are reborn in the company of the gods..
If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpagānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati.
so for now it seem reincanation is existing.

Reincarnation is happening from the afterlife world..hmm it also seem you reborn* to the world you abide in present life.

returner(āgāmī) is when you come back to this existence from ayatana heavens.
When they pass away from there, they’re a returner, who comes back to this state of existence.

*reincarnation seem logical if it is into body and after this body is broken it is just rebirth, appearing, acquisition of senses so if reborn into heavenly place it doesn't need body to reincarnate into..accordingly to the jhana descriptions decide if it is into body or is there no body..

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:01 am

auto wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:36 am
what about attabhāvapaṭilābho

https://suttacentral.net/an4.171/en/sujato
Hi Auto

"Attabhāva" we extensively discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34052. Also, its probably best to stick to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 4.171; where he translated "attabhāvapaṭilābhā" as "acquisition of individuality".

"Paṭilābho" appears to mean "acquisition". For example:
Sukhaṃ yāva jarā sīlaṃ, sukhā saddhā patiṭṭhitā; Sukho paññāya paṭilābho, pāpānaṃ akaraṇaṃ sukhaṃ.

Good is virtue until life’s end, good is faith that is steadfast, good is the acquisition of wisdom, and good is the avoidance of evil.

Dhp 33
Bhikkhus, there are these eight causes and conditions that lead to obtaining (paṭilābhāya) the wisdom fundamental to the spiritual life when it has not been obtained (appaṭiladdhāya) and to its increase, maturation, and fulfillment by development after it has been obtained (paṭiladdhāya). What eight?.... Here, a bhikkhu lives in dependence on the Teacher.... AN 8.2
....verified confidence in the Awakened One... verified confidence in the Dhamma... verified confidence in the Sangha... endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones.... the gaining (paṭilābho) of the four continents [by an emperor] is not equal to one sixteenth of the gaining (paṭilābho) of these four qualities. SN 55.1
There are, bhikkhus, these three perils when mother & son reconnect that the uninstructed worldling speaks of as perils that separate mother & son. What three? (1) “There comes a time when a great conflagration arises. When the great conflagration has arisen, it burns up villages, towns & cities. When villages, towns & cities are burning up, there is sometimes an occasion when the mother finds (paṭilabhati) her son & the son finds (paṭilabhati) his mother. This is the first peril when mother & son reconnect that the uninstructed worldling speaks of as a peril that separates mother & son. AN 3.62
'I have destroyed life, so I am bound for a state of misery, bound for hell'. He acquires (paṭilabhati) such a view. SN 42.8
A monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity (evaṃ upekkhaṃ paṭilabhati). MN 106
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: four kinds of deeds and rebirth, beings out of beings and more

Post by auto » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:17 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:01 am
auto wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:36 am
what about attabhāvapaṭilābho

https://suttacentral.net/an4.171/en/sujato
Hi Auto

"Attabhāva" we extensively discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34052. Also, its probably best to stick to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 4.171; where he translated "attabhāvapaṭilābhā" as "acquisition of individuality".

"Paṭilābho" appears to mean "acquisition". For example:
Sukhaṃ yāva jarā sīlaṃ, sukhā saddhā patiṭṭhitā; Sukho paññāya paṭilābho, pāpānaṃ akaraṇaṃ sukhaṃ.

Good is virtue until life’s end, good is faith that is steadfast, good is the acquisition of wisdom, and good is the avoidance of evil.


ok, i think i get it.

If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpagānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati.

When they pass away from there, they’re a returner, who comes back to this state of existence. So tato cuto āgāmī hoti āgantā itthattaṃ.


In this case the atthabhava is nevasaññānāsaññāyatana. If you are committed to it often without losing it you will spontaneously appear there, it refers to there is no intent nor others intent.

if you don't attain cessation there then you will return, if you not come back then you attain cessation of perception and feeling.

(idk why it is in italics..)

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