?!?!?DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:46 amWhy would a Chinese parallel transmitted 100s of years later be relevant? Regardless, the dimension of nothingness includes the perception of nothingness; thus includes nama (perception).
Thank Buddha, we have those Chinese parallels that existed at his time (or just after), and were gratefully translated later on by the Chinese.
Because this gives us a very precious additional definition of "nāma". A concept that you do not seem to have yet grasped thoroughly.
There are indeed two definitions of nāma-rūpa. One in the Agamas (Chinese text), and one in the Nikayas (Pali text).
They are respectively in SA 298, and SN 12.2.
Also, in MN 9 & MĀ 29 (please see Analayo's " A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-nikāya - vol. 1 - page 70 + note # 220, for that matter).
Indeed, the two definitions are complemental, as seen on this visual aid.
https://justpaste.it/img/02a4de2cbca791 ... fc0f10.png
The Agama's definition is about the "not yet sensory/existential" khandhas in the nāmarūpa nidāna :
Coactions (determinations, formations)
Forms (matter) = rūpa
Thank the Chinese for that.
While the Nikayas give the following "existential" (that is to say a "satta kind") definition of nāma-rūpa.
What is Name-&-Form?
- Manasikara (mano kṛ),
Forms (matter) = rūpa
So, first, you have to be a bit more accurate when you say nāma (perception) ?!?
For nāma is a whole.
Perception is a khandha, not a nāma. It is part of nāma; but not "a" nāma.
And to go back to the point I was making previously, and about your dazzlingly skilled expostulations, like your brilliant "nāma (perception) " - may I add that, when you are in the "dimension of nothingness" (or more appropriately in the field of experience (ayatana) of nothingness), there is no "nāma" there.
"Not yet", when you "descend" paṭiccasamuppāda (as in SA 296; where you start with ignorance) - or "no more", when you "escape upwards" (as in SN 12.20; when you start with existence).
No manasikara (mano kṛ); not even consciousness any longer, in that "escape shebang". Nothing you can call nāma there.
Please, read me before you answer. And if you don't understand what I mean, please feel free to avoid replying. Rambling on, or red herring, are such heavy means, aren't they?
Taciturnity is a valuable quality.