Saddha

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UpasakaAbhaya
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Saddha

Post by UpasakaAbhaya » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:27 pm

Dear Friends in Dhamma,

Is there a passage which defines saddha (faith/conviction) as conviction in kamma and its fruit? I seem to recall there is, but can only find its opposite quality (doubt) defined as a lack of conviction in kamma and its fruit....

Metta and Peace,
Bowing and thanks,
Abhaya/Andrew

UpasakaAbhaya
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Re: Saddha

Post by UpasakaAbhaya » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:53 pm

Dear Friends in Dhamma (again,)

I should specify that I'm hoping for a sutta passage and not something commentarial. Any definition of saddha besides conviction in the Lord Buddha or the Triple Gem will do.

Metta and peace,
Bowing and thanks,
Abhaya/Andrew

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Saddha

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:38 pm

When this was said, General Siha said to the Blessed One: "As for the four fruits of generosity visible in the here & now that have been pointed out by the Blessed One, it's not the case that I go by conviction in the Blessed One with regard to them. I know them, too. I am one who gives, a master of giving, dear & charming to people at large. I am one who gives, a master of giving; good people, people of integrity, admire me. I am one who gives, a master of giving, and my fine reputation is spread far & wide: 'Siha is generous, a doer, a supporter of the Sangha.' I am one who gives, a master of giving, and when I approach any assembly of people — noble warriors, brahmans, householders, or contemplatives — I do so confidently & without embarrassment.

"But when the Blessed One says to me, 'At the break-up of the body, after death, one who gives, who is a master of giving, reappears in a good destination, the heavenly world,' that I do not know. That is where I go by conviction in the Blessed One."

"So it is, Siha. So it is. At the break-up of the body, after death, one who gives, who is a master of giving, reappears in a good destination, the heavenly world."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

SarathW
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Re: Saddha

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:41 pm

Hi Upaska Abhaya
Thank you for asking this question.
I just found the highlighted phrase is worthy of discussion.

===========
When the truly good people in the world show compassion, they will first show compassion to people of conviction, and not to people without conviction. When visiting, they first visit people of conviction, and not people without conviction. When accepting gifts, they will first accept those from people with conviction, and not from people without conviction. When teaching the Dhamma, they will first teach those with conviction, and not those without conviction. A person of conviction, on the break-up of the body, after death, will arise in a good destination, the heavenly world. For a lay person, these are the five rewards of conviction.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Srilankaputra
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Re: Saddha

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:11 pm

And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

UpasakaAbhaya
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Re: Saddha

Post by UpasakaAbhaya » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:54 pm

Dear all,

Thank you for the replies. I was aware of all these passages. I was looking for something that specifically linked up saddha with right view and/or kamma, along the lines of the third quote above. I suppose all these passages do illustrate a connection, but I was seeking something short and explicit. I was probably myself, crossing wires in my memory banks, but still if anyone recalls such a short explicit passage.

Ajahn Thanissaro via Ajahn Fuang (or visa versa, I suppose) has a saying that "All you need to have faith/conviction in is kamma." So I was sort of looking for a passage that supports this.

Metta and peace,
Bowing and thanks,
Abhaya/Andrew

SarathW
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Re: Saddha

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:12 pm

Another place you find a strong description of Saddha is the "reverse Dependent Origination" There is a Sutta to support this but I can't locate it.

The Upanisa Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya describes the reversed order, in which the causes for enlightenment are given. This application of the principle of dependent arising is referred to in Theravada exegetical literature as "transcendental dependent arising".[71][note 28] The chain in this case is:

suffering (dukkha)
faith (saddhā)
joy (pāmojja, pāmujja)
rapture (pīti)
tranquillity (passaddhi)
happiness (sukha)
concentration (samādhi)
knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathābhūta-ñāna-dassana)
disenchantment with worldly life (nibbidā)
dispassion (virāga)
freedom, release, emancipation (vimutti, a synonym for nibbana[72])
knowledge of destruction of the cankers (āsava-khaye-ñāna)}}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%A ... tp%C4%81da
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Saddha

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:38 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:38 pm
"But when the Blessed One says to me, 'At the break-up of the body, after death, one who gives, who is a master of giving, reappears in a good destination, the heavenly world,' that I do not know. That is where I go by conviction in the Blessed One."
The above appears to be conviction in the words of General Siha rather than conviction in the words of the Buddha. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Saddha

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:56 am

UpasakaAbhaya wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:54 pm
I was looking for something that specifically linked up saddha with right view and/or kamma, along the lines of the third quote above.
Hello Andrew. The third quote above is not a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Instead, per MN 117, it is merely a meritorious right view with effluents & attachment. Therefore, it appears the quote below about faith from AN 4.34 does not apply to conviction in the belief in "kamma & results":
AN 4.34 wrote:Those who have confidence in the noble eightfold path have confidence in the best.
Ye, bhikkhave, ariye aṭṭhaṅgike magge pasannā, agge te pasannā.

Having confidence in the best, the result is the best.
Agge kho pana pasannānaṃ aggo vipāko hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.34/en/sujato
However, the third quote above is found in MN 60, where "non-belief" in it is called natthikavāda; and where disbelief in the efficacy of kamma is called "akiriyavādo" & disbelief in causality is called "ahetukavādo".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Saddha

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:41 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:38 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:38 pm
"But when the Blessed One says to me, 'At the break-up of the body, after death, one who gives, who is a master of giving, reappears in a good destination, the heavenly world,' that I do not know. That is where I go by conviction in the Blessed One."
The above appears to be conviction in the words of General Siha rather than conviction in the words of the Buddha. :smile:
The Buddha agreed 🤷🏻‍♂️

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DooDoot
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Re: Saddha

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:44 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:41 am
The Buddha agreed 🤷🏻‍♂️
Where? Where does the Buddha say: "conviction"? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Saddha

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:33 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:44 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:41 am
The Buddha agreed 🤷🏻‍♂️
Where? Where does the Buddha say: "conviction"? :shrug:
“So it is, Siha. So it is. At the break-up of the body, after death, one who gives, who is a master of giving, reappears in a good destination, the heavenly world."

He didn’t correct Siha’s faith. He confirmed it.

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DooDoot
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Re: Saddha

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:20 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:33 am
So it is, Siha. So it is. At the break-up of the body, after death, one who gives, who is a master of giving, reappears in a good destination, the heavenly world."

He didn’t correct Siha’s faith. He confirmed it.
Buddha didn't say what he said was an object of "blind faith". For example, for the Buddha, what he said was a direct realisation. General Siha merely "interpreted" what the Buddha said. Where as for the Buddha, what He said could be something very different; as follows:
The Awakened One, best of speakers, Spoke two kinds of truths: The conventional and the ultimate. A third truth does not obtain. Therein:

The speech wherewith the world converses is true, on account of its being agreed upon by the world. The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true, characterizing dhammas as they really are.

Therefore, being skilled in common usage, False speech does not arise in the Teacher, Who is Lord of the World, When he speaks according to conventions.

Mn. i. 95
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Saddha

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:23 am

DooDoot

Buddha didn't say what he said was an object of "blind faith". For example, for the Buddha, what he said was a direct realisation. General Siha merely "interpreted" what the Buddha said. Where as for the Buddha, what He said could be something very different; as follows:
You are the only one mentioning blind faith. Siha said he can see the benefits of the Dhamma in this life but as to the benefits in the next life he has to go by saddha. The Buddha confirmed that his saddha was well placed. If it were a wrong view he would have said so. The confirmation by the Buddha means it’s true. So, this means that Siha will experience the benefits of giving both in this life and in the one post physical death.

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DooDoot
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Re: Saddha

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:54 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:23 am
Siha said he can see the benefits of the Dhamma in this life but as to the benefits in the next life he has to go by saddha. The Buddha confirmed that his saddha was well placed.
Ha, ha. The above again is following the ideas of Siha and not necessarily the Buddha. If you learn Pali, you may find "kaya" may not necessarily mean "physical body" and "marana" may not necessarily mean "physical death". The Buddha taught something, which Siha may have interpreted differently to the Buddha's realization yet the Buddha was happy for Siha to have his own interpretation; given such an interpretation may be of moral benefit to Siha. Unlike your own unsubstantiated words, the commentary says of the Lord Buddha: "Therefore, being skilled in common usage, False speech does not arise in the Teacher, Who is Lord of the World, When he speaks according to conventions". Kind regards. :mrgreen:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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