(figure since this is only tangentially related to our practice in reality, it is better suited to this forum)
As I'm sure you're all familiar with, throughout the suttas there are instances of the Buddha or various bhikkhus, etc., making use of these seemingly superhuman abilities, ranging from the realization of certain knowledges, to even stranger things such as flying, teleportation, the "mind-made body", to name a few.
Do you give any credence to these stories? If so, why, and can you cite any bhikkhus/scholars who also do? Or, do you not give them a thought, and if so, what do you think of the fact of their mention in the suttas?
Or do you simply not bother wondering one way or the other, since it isn't a necessary facet of the path to awakening?
Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
What is more wondrous? The destruction of all suffering, or flying?Kenshou wrote: Do you give any credence to these stories? If so, why, and can you cite any bhikkhus/scholars who also do? Or, do you not give them a thought, and if so, what do you think of the fact of their mention in the suttas?
To accept that it is possible to escape something as pervasive as suffering makes these other things, to me, not hard to accept, as they are less interesting or remarkable. When you read the suttas you regularly run across the list of mundane knowledge and abilities that might arise from the practicing of the path, and so it seems fairly unlikely that they are extraneous to the original cannon.
I don't know of any scholarly opinions, as that is not my forte.
Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
I think it's possible, for one who wishes to spend a long time in solitude cultivating them. You'd have to ask yourself why you'd want to cultivate them though...
What's more important?
metta
Jack
What's more important?
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
There is a story about a reporter who asked an old monk about levitation and flying. Is it really possible? he asked.Kenshou wrote:(figure since this is only tangentially related to our practice in reality, it is better suited to this forum)
As I'm sure you're all familiar with, throughout the suttas there are instances of the Buddha or various bhikkhus, etc., making use of these seemingly superhuman abilities, ranging from the realization of certain knowledges, to even stranger things such as flying, teleportation, the "mind-made body", to name a few.
Do you give any credence to these stories? If so, why, and can you cite any bhikkhus/scholars who also do? Or, do you not give them a thought, and if so, what do you think of the fact of their mention in the suttas?
Or do you simply not bother wondering one way or the other, since it isn't a necessary facet of the path to awakening?
Sure, the monk answered - but these days almost noone can do it.
Why? - the reporter asked.
You know - the monk answered with a wink - it takes long and tedious hours to learn it. Much easier to buy a ticket for an aeroplane ...
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
Or a more serious reply:
Whenever I meet someone who takes these description at face value, I like to remind him that the standard description also includes touching the sun with one's bare hands ...
Whenever I meet someone who takes these description at face value, I like to remind him that the standard description also includes touching the sun with one's bare hands ...
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
There's also the one about a yogi proclaiming to the Buddha his ability to walk on water. I can't remember where I read it but it goes something like that:
The Buddha asked the yogi how much it would have cost for him to hire a boatman to take him across the water, to which the yogi answered 'Two cents'. The Buddha then said, 'All the time and effort you spent developing this power is worth only two cents. Your time and effort would have been better spent seeking release from suffering, which is of immeasurable value.'
I think that's how it goes.....
The Buddha asked the yogi how much it would have cost for him to hire a boatman to take him across the water, to which the yogi answered 'Two cents'. The Buddha then said, 'All the time and effort you spent developing this power is worth only two cents. Your time and effort would have been better spent seeking release from suffering, which is of immeasurable value.'
I think that's how it goes.....
With metta,
zavk
zavk
Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
And in the Kevaddhasutta (DN 11), the Buddha said that he disliked, rejected and despised that kind of things.zavk wrote:There's also the one about a yogi proclaiming to the Buddha his ability to walk on water. I can't remember where I read it but it goes something like that:
The Buddha asked the yogi how much it would have cost for him to hire a boatman to take him across the water, to which the yogi answered 'Two cents'. The Buddha then said, 'All the time and effort you spent developing this power is worth only two cents. Your time and effort would have been better spent seeking release from suffering, which is of immeasurable value.'
I think that's how it goes.....
Mettāya,
Kåre
Kåre
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Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
If you don't know the source, don't claim that the Buddha said it. There are lots of such "stories" invented to make a point, which may not be a valid point at all. For a start, bhikkhus in the Buddha's time did not use money, so how would they hire a boatman for 2 cents?zavk wrote:There's also the one about a yogi proclaiming to the Buddha his ability to walk on water. I can't remember where I read it but it goes something like that:
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Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
Yes of course Bhante, I understand.Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:If you don't know the source, don't claim that the Buddha said it. There are lots of such "stories" invented to make a point, which may not be a valid point at all. For a start, bhikkhus in the Buddha's time did not use money, so how would they hire a boatman for 2 cents?zavk wrote:There's also the one about a yogi proclaiming to the Buddha his ability to walk on water. I can't remember where I read it but it goes something like that:
I thought it was clear in my post that I was merely recounting a story I read/heard, using what I thought is a common rhetorical device, 'There's the one about...' to pick up on Kare's previous story. Perhaps I should've been more explicit. My apologies. It is certainly not my intention to associate this story with the Pali Canon or anything like that.
But taking the story as it is..... from what I can remember, the person speaking to the Buddha wasn't a member of the sangha--more likely someone from outside the sangha trying to challenge the Buddha. And that person did not actually hire a boatman. He was merely replying to the Buddha's hypothetical question. Nor do I think that the Buddha was expecting him to actually hire a boat.
With metta,
zavk
zavk
Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
I have come to believe that they might be possible. Ajahn Brahm sometimes tells a mind reading story about Ajahn Chah. Ajahn Jayasaro as well. See the video below:
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Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
I think it is a zen story.zavk wrote:There's also the one about a yogi proclaiming to the Buddha his ability to walk on water. I can't remember where I read it but it goes something like that:
The Buddha asked the yogi how much it would have cost for him to hire a boatman to take him across the water, to which the yogi answered 'Two cents'. The Buddha then said, 'All the time and effort you spent developing this power is worth only two cents. Your time and effort would have been better spent seeking release from suffering, which is of immeasurable value.'
I think that's how it goes.....
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
I think that many people who have spent a fair bit of time with yogin bhikkhu/nis have a story or two about mind reading. A lot of people get a bit freaked out the first time(s) it happens. Especially if they don't believe it is possible - despite the evidence in their face (or rather, in their mind). Ajahn Chah is certainly one example. Elsewhere, about Master Hsuan Hua, the Chinese monk who has established quite a few monasteries in North America, there are also more than a few examples. Actually, quite a few people have experienced similar things on a short term basis after some serious samatha meditation in particular.Moggalana wrote:I have come to believe that they might be possible. Ajahn Brahm sometimes tells a mind reading story about Ajahn Chah. Ajahn Jayasaro as well.
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Re: Iddhis/Siddhis - What do you think?
from my memory and not really from any in depth study of the canon i can only recall that the monks who did the super stuff like flying etc (including the Buddha) were the monks who had spent lots of time as ascetics, yogis etc prior to joining the sangha, yes they had powers but these aren't what they had spent their time developing once they set out on the Buddha's path.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat