Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Dinsdale
Posts: 6379
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Dinsdale » Fri May 31, 2019 8:43 am

It might help to pin down the meaning of "vicaya".

It appears to mean investigation or verification. This could mean investigation of phenomena (dhamma), or verification of truths and principles (dhamma), or both.

For example, do we apply the assumed truth of anicca to aspects of our experience in order to verify it, or do we investigate aspects of our experience and notice that they are characterised by anicca.
Actually it seems a bit chicken and egg.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Fri May 31, 2019 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5202
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot » Fri May 31, 2019 8:52 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 7:01 am
If you could elaborate on aspects of sati factor ?
I already did. The sati factor has two components:

1. The mind remembers to maintain ("sati") the abandoning of covetousness & distress in relation to the world.

2. As a result, the unhindered mind observes or sees ("anupassi") body, feelings, citta &/or Dhamma.

Dhamma-vicaya appears to be the examination of 1 & 2 above, namely, their characteristics & effects, with wisdom.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 5230
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Sam Vara » Fri May 31, 2019 10:26 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:43 am
It might help to pin down the meaning of "vicaya".

It appears to mean investigation or verification. This could mean investigation of phenomena (dhamma), or verification of truths and principles (dhamma), or both.

For example, do we apply the assumed truth of anicca to aspects of our experience in order to verify it, or do we investigate aspects of our experience and notice that they are characterised by anicca.
Actually it seems a bit chicken and egg.
The verification angle is interesting, implying as it does the experiencing of phenomena coupled with (or informed by, or "in line with") what we are told about those phenomena (eg., that they are impermanent, unsatisfactory, or that they instantiate the Four Noble Truths, etc.). Ajahn Thanissaro seems to favour this approach:
This is called dhamma-vicaya, investigating phenomena. You investigate the physical phenomena in the body to see them in line with the four noble truths. You look at the arising of physical phenomena right here. You look at the aging, the illness, the death of phenomena right here within you. If you really look for it, you'll see that the body is full of death.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... rmind.html

I'm sympathetic to it, in that it might seem to fit with certain suttas, and also (in a much more diffuse sense) because it parallels Richard Gombrich's verificationist approach to understanding suttas and the Dhamma in general, which I love. (Gombrich knew Popper well, of course, and helped edit papers contributing towards Conjectures and Refutations.)

There are, though, a few problems with it. One is that in the Satipatthana Sutta, the meditator is said to discern that "the enlightenment factor of investigation of qualities is not present within me"; presumably he is using dhamma-vicaya in order to discern this, and the definition thereby undercuts itself.

The second problem is that vicaya isn't anywhere defined as having a verificationist connotation. The PTS gives "search, examination, investigation", and Warder "discrimination". The verb vicinati seems to mean "investigate", "examine" or "discriminate". With some of these, there could be an implicit aspect of verification (i.e. what are we searching for? Examining against what?) that all the translators have missed but not with "discrimination".

As you said up-thread, there isn't a lot in the suttas to go on...

Pulsar
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Pulsar » Fri May 31, 2019 12:23 pm

frank k
Is this commonly known?
perhaps commonly to the persistent investigator,
I've suspected this for years, but only recently became thoroughly convinced.
Thanks, I appreciate this.

Sam Vara thanks for Popper,
Conjectures and Refutations
.
that helps, quite a stimulating paper.

Srilankaputra
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri May 31, 2019 1:04 pm

Sati or mindfulness is the key to understand all the bojjangas. It is the fulfilment of yoniso manasikara. When sati is established the heart does not follow after any external arammana. Phenemona is simply witnessed without getting involved. It's like, when watching a movie, instead of getting caught up in the story you suddenly become aware of your self.

Then you start noticing the screen, people around you etc. That is dhammavicaya.

imo
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

ToVincent
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by ToVincent » Fri May 31, 2019 9:44 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:04 pm
Sati or mindfulness is the key to understand all the bojjangas. It is the fulfilment of yoniso manasikara...
Maybe it is time to better understand what manasikara (manasi √ कृ kṛ) means.

मनस् manas [abstr. (intangible, not physical) of √ मन् man]

√ मन् Man
- to reflect upon , consider , examine , investigate - to call in question , doubt (AV. Br.)
- to think , believe , imagine , suppose , conjecture (RV.)
- to perceive , observe , learn , know , understand , comprehend (RV.)
- to think of (RV. - AV.)


If मनसि manasi is the locative of manas in Sanskrit, it is, in Pali, the accusative form of mānasa (nt.) [a secondary formation fr. manas=mano].

Now, one of the meaning of √ कृ kṛ (kara), and definitely the more appropiate, is "to direct" (the thoughts, mano, etc.).

So, manasikara just means "to turn the mano" (towards).
Like in yoniso manasikara = "to turn the mano towards the origin.

Manasikara means to "produce with the mano"
With the origination of producing with the mano, there is the origination of phenomena.
SN 47.42

AND
also, to "turn the mano" towards something.
Bhikkhus, by frequently turning the mano - (viz. sensorily & emptionally) things that are a basis for the enlightenment factor of the acquisition (of citta), the unarisen enlightenment factor of sati (obtention of citta) arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of sati (obtention [of the establishment of citta]) comes to fulfilment by development….
SN 46.23
Bhikkhus, when one turn the mano towards the origin, the unarisen enlightenment factor of sati arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of sati goes to fulfilment by development ... the unarisen enlightenment factor of equanimity arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of equanimity goes to fulfilment by development."
(concerns the seven factors of enlightenment)
“Yoniso ca kho, bhikkhave, manasikaroto anuppanno ceva satisambojjhaṅgo uppajjati, uppanno ca satisambojjhaṅgo bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati … pe … anuppanno ceva upekkhāsambojjhaṅgo uppajjati, uppanno ca upekkhāsambojjhaṅgo bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchatī”ti.
SN 46.36 .
-----------
“Friend Upavaṇa, can a bhikkhu know for himself: ‘By turning the mano towards the origin, the seven factors of enlightenment have been fully perfected by me in such a way that they lead to dwelling in comfort’?”
“Jāneyya nu kho, āvuso upavāna, bhikkhu ‘paccattaṃ yonisomanasikārā evaṃ susamāraddhā me satta bojjhaṅgā phāsuvihārāya saṃvattantī’”ti?

“A bhikkhu can know this for himself, friend Sāriputta. When arousing the enlightenment factor of sati (acquisition [of the establishment]), friend, a bhikkhu understands: ‘My citta is well liberated; I have uprooted sloth and torpor and thoroughly removed overdoing and underdoing). My energy has been aroused. I attend as a matter of vital concern, not sluggishly.’… When arousing the enlightenment factor of equanimity, he understands: ‘My citta is well liberated; I have uprooted sloth and torpor and thoroughly removed restlessness and remorse. My energy has been aroused. I turn the mano towards the origin, as a matter of vital concern, not sluggishly.’
“Satisambojjhaṅgaṃ kho, āvuso, bhikkhu ārabbhamāno pajānāti ‘cittañca me suvimuttaṃ, thinamiddhañca me susamūhataṃ, uddhaccakukkuccañca me suppaṭivinītaṃ, āraddhañca me vīriyaṃ, aṭṭhiṃ katvā manasi karomi, no ca līnan’ti … pe … upekkhāsambojjhaṅgaṃ āvuso, bhikkhu ārabbhamāno pajānāti ‘cittañca me suvimuttaṃ, thinamiddhañca me susamūhataṃ, uddhaccakukkuccañca me suppaṭivinītaṃ, āraddhañca me vīriyaṃ, aṭṭhiṃ katvā manasi karomi, no ca līnan’”ti.
SN 46.8

However, I think that you confound Sadhguru's philosophy (see Youtube), with Buddha's one.
Seing with an established citta (samādhi) is not the same than seeing with a mano or a ceto that are "detached". The establishment of citta happens in nāmarūpa nidāna; not in the saḷāyatana one.
Yoniso manasikara is just about the former. To obtain (sati) the establishment (samadhi) of citta, requires this type of yoniso manasikara. That is to say to turn the mano towards the nāmarūpa nidāna - to establish the citta - to see things according to what have come to be (yathābhūta).

See yoniso manasikara at the end of this page: https://justpaste.it/119gt
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Srilankaputra
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:11 am

ToVincent wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:44 pm
So, manasikara just means "to turn the mano" (towards).
Like in yoniso manasikara = "to turn the mano towards the origin.
Thats not quite how i see manasikara. Manasikara is a cetasika which bends the citta to a arammana(or nimitta) again and again. Or it is like a track that directs the train of cittas in a certain direction. Manasikara is what generates the various dhammas either skilful or unskilful.

for example ;

patighanimitta + Manasikara ——> byāpāda

satisambojjhaṅgaṭṭhānīyā dhammā + Manasikara ——> satisambojjhaṅga

yoniso manasikara is, mind doing the right work
AND
Making the mind do the right work.



ToVincent wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:44 pm
However, I think that you confound Sadhguru's philosophy (see Youtube), with Buddha's one.
Seing with an established citta (samādhi) is not the same than seeing with a mano or a ceto that are "detached". The establishment of citta happens in nāmarūpa nidāna; not in the saḷāyatana one.
I am unfamiliar with what you are referring to. Can you elaborate ?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

ToVincent
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by ToVincent » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:56 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:11 am
...
Very simple indeed.
See this visual aid: https://justpaste.it/1n1ii

What you seem to imply is that one should experience the external fields of sensory experience (bahirani ayatanani) with a detached internal field of experience => "polluted citta" (ceto) - and let that external experience come in, with no "involvement".
Path # 1 in this picture: https://justpaste.it/1n1ii

This is not sati as "mindfulness". A real sati does not let bad dhammas (even the good ones) in.
Internal fields of experience are defined as void, hollow, empty; and then "attacked" (SN 35.238) by agreeable and disagreeable forms.
Sati is about keeping things out (https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn35.245/14-15)
Note: The all sense experience is summarized here: https://justpaste.it/19cgw

Indeed, the gist of echt Buddhism is not about experiencing the external ayatanani with detached internal ayatanani. It is about experiencing dhammas with a free citta.
Dhammas are coactions (sankharas) of khandhas.
It is about reaching (back to) the free citta in Nama-rupa nidana, to see (with the "spiritual eye) how things have come to be.
It is about walking backward the #2 path in this picture: https://justpaste.it/1n1ii
You can do that through Anapanasati.

You reach a free citta from the internal. You establish (samādhi) the citta from the internal.
That passes by the knowledge of your internal khandhas, and their corresponding khandhas in namarupa nidana - ("khandhas are not yours").
So, you have to keep turning your mano towards the origin (yoniso manasikara) ; that is to say towards the khandhas in namarupa nidana, that are the origination of your own internal khandhas.
You have to see things without the "polluted" citta (ceto).
The cit is much "cleaner" in namarupa nidāna, so to speak.
This is part of the meaning of "paṇidhāya parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā" (https://justpaste.it/4sil5).
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Srilankaputra
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:55 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:56 am
Thanks. But I don't quite follow your argument. Are you saying namarupa is a different or deeper level behind salayatana?

My understanding is, salayatana is namarupa. Namarupa organised in to six fields of activity. Or twelve of you divide it in to internal and external.

Also as per sammaditti sutta(mn9), understanding any one of twelve nidanas constitute right view or seeing the dhamma. One can see dhamma at salayatana or namarupa, it depends on the individual imo.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5202
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:20 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:44 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:04 pm
Sati or mindfulness is the key to understand all the bojjangas. It is the fulfilment of yoniso manasikara...
Maybe it is time to better understand what manasikara (manasi √ कृ kṛ) means.
It appears Srilankaputra might have been correct in their post:
AN 10.61 wrote:I say that mindfulness and situational awareness (satisampajaññassa) is fueled by something, it’s not unfueled. And what is the fuel for mindfulness and situational awareness? You should say: ‘Proper attention (Yonisomanasikāro)’.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/sujato
It seems what you posted agreed with Srilankaputra:
SN 46.23 wrote: Bhikkhus, by frequently giving attention to things that are a basis for the enlightenment factor of mindfulness, the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development…. By frequently giving attention to things that are a basis for the enlightenment factor of equanimity, the unarisen enlightenment factor of equanimity arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of equanimity comes to fulfilment by development.

SN 46.23 https://suttacentral.net/sn46.23/en/bodhi
:alien:
ToVincent wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:44 pm
Manasikara means to "produce with the mano"

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo;

With the origination of producing with the mano, there is the origination of phenomena :roll: .

SN 47.42
The translation above appears incorrect when viewed in relation with other suttas, such as AN 10.61, which has been quoted above. "Dhammānaṃ" in SN 47.2 obviously refers to the "Teachings" or the "Natural Truths" (that are the subject of the teachings, which includes Path Factors). The translation provided above of SN 47.42 with "phenomena" sounds like Brahmanistic Solipsism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

ToVincent
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by ToVincent » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:15 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:55 pm
...

Put it this way.
The last (fourth formless) achievement is "neither-perception-nor-not-perception ".
How one gets there, is by jumping the nidānas backwards.
So namarupa is a somewhat "deeper" level behind salayatana; but mostly the level "before",and a more "refined" level (MN 59).

To arrive at knowledge from ignorance, the process gets grosser and grosser along the nidānas. (This is, by the way, a constant in Indian philosophy - sthūla bhūta).
Once one is "knowledgeable" - that is to say that once one have understood that this is just dukkha; then one has to escape backwards.

I explained how one gets to dwell (back) in namarupa nidana - that is to say to leave the kama-loka (salayatana) for the rupa-loka.

The next step is to embark towards consciousness - and viññāṇa anidassana https://justpaste.it/6373k
To do that, one transcends form and space.

Then viññāṇa anidassana takes us to the realm of nothingness.

The dimension of neither-perception-nor-not-perception is the realm where one sees nothing more of the dharman of paticcasamupada.
ध dha (or √ dhā) - √ मन् man - somewhat meaning a "performed & established "thinking"" (dharma) [धर्मन् dharmán]
Paṭiccasamuppāda being one of these dharmán - viz. the actualisation (objectification) of ignorance.

So in that realm, one does not perceive "things" in paṭiccasamuppāda anymore (viz. perception of nothingness). But one perceives something else, not of this paṭiccasamuppāda.

I believe this to be the greatest adventure of all; isn't it?

_______

Now let's go back to the OP (Frank) question.

Apart from the fact that I have already made him notice that he does not check for parallels (like the lousy (if not even existing) parallel on mindfulness in SA 647 (SN 48.9-10) - I have a slight remark to make on the strict parallel between Dhamma-vicaya and Dhamma-anupasssana. Not that there is none; but there is a nuance to be applied.

The 4th category of 4sp, (Dhamma-anu-passsana), is about fetching apart the noticeable phenomena, among the phenomenas (plural).
While the Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga, is about pick out (select) that dhamma from the origin (yoniso vicine dhammaṃ).

Vicaya - fr. विचि vici [vi-ci]
- to segregate , select , pick out , cull TS. ŚBr. MBh.

Isn't "noticing" and "waking up" the all thing there is to sam­boj­jhaṅgo?
√ बुध् budh
- to wake , wake up , be awake (RV.)
- to perceive , notice , understand , become or be aware of or acquainted with (RV.)
संबुध् saṃbudh [ sam-√ budh ]
- to wake up MBh.
- to perceive or understand thoroughly , notice , observe , know ib.
_______

Parallels Frank, for Buddha's sake. That would be so nice of you.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5202
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:28 am

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:15 am
The next step is to embark towards consciousness - and viññāṇa anidassana
Dependent origination (eg. in MN 9) teaches consciousness & nama-rupa arise & cease together.

Yet the suttas to BrAHMa (DN 11; MN 49) about viññāṇa anidassana say nama-rupa cease when viññāṇa anidassana exists.

This shows viññāṇa anidassana is not related to dependent origination & dependent cessation.
ToVincent wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:15 am
Then viññāṇa anidassana takes us to the realm of nothingness.
The suttas (eg MN 111) say "nama" exists in the realm of nothingness.
ToVincent wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:15 am
The dimension of neither-perception-nor-not-perception is the realm where one sees nothing more of the dharman of paticcasamupada.
Unlikely. Nibbana is where there is nothing more of the dharman of paticcasamupada.
"One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.'

MN 140 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

ToVincent
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by ToVincent » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:32 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:28 am
...
Didn't I just remark that Frank k is using two many suttas with no, or poor parallels. And that this does make things pretty dubious?
MN 111 does not even have a parallel. Should I bother to check the others ones you mentioned ? (provided that they are related to what I am talking about).

At least Frank's mulling, doesn't just rely on feeding us with a litany of incoherent results from the sutta-central search engine; just for the sake of saying something.
His cogitations are pretty deep and rational; and there is a sound and genuine amount of work behind them; for he has definitely a point to make.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5202
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:46 am

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:32 am
MN 111 does not even have a parallel.
Why would a Chinese parallel transmitted 100s of years later be relevant? Regardless, the dimension of nothingness includes the perception of nothingness; thus includes nama (perception).
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Srilankaputra
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga of 7sb and the 4th category of 4sp, Dhamma-anu-passsana, are one and the same

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:33 am

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:15 am
To arrive at knowledge from ignorance, the process gets grosser and grosser along the nidānas. (This is, by the way, a constant in Indian philosophy - sthūla bhūta).

That is very interesting. But the Buddha Dhamma was quite departure from standard indian philosophy. was it not ?

The way i currently understand it, the heart of Buddha Dhamma is dependant origination and dependant cessation, in a general sense. That is to say;

This being, that is;
from the arising of this, that arises;
this not being, that is not;
from the cessation of this, that ceases.

“First, Susīma, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.”

(“Pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan”ti)


This not necessarily confined to the twelve nidanas. In Sammaditti sutta(MN9) alone, Ven Sariputta enumerate a number of different ways one might gain insight in to this truth. And there are many different versions of dependant originations in the suttas. And of course Ven Sariputta heard nothing of the twelve nidanas when he became a Sotapanna. He just heard 'ye dhamma hetuppabhava' .
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests