MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

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DooDoot
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MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 26, 2019 5:02 am

Dear DW forum

MN 117 refers to "two sorts of right view", namely, "with effluents" and "without effluents".

In respect to those factors (aṅga) without effluents (anāsavā), MN 117 says they are "a factor of the path" ("maggaṅgā"):
And there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

atthi, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā.
MN 117 does not appear to use the word "magga" ("path") in relation to those dhammas that are "with effluents" ("sāsavā").

My questions for discussion are :

* Does there actually exist an "eightfold path" with effluents?

* Is so, where does this "path" lead to? What is its destination?

:shrug:
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retrofuturist
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Re: MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

Post by retrofuturist » Sun May 26, 2019 5:21 am

Greetings DooDoot,

Everything cascades from View.

If one has "Right View with Effluents", there will be "Right Intention with Effluents". Right Intention with Effluents might look like "I will do good deeds, so that I will be reborn in heaven". This Right Intention with Effluents then flows on through the remainder of the other factors. It is a way to higher realms, but it remains tainted because it is rooted in identity, and thus, it is not transcendent, and it is not an end to "wandering on".

I also imagine some non-Buddhist paths might consist of "Right View with Effluents" too, but to your point, in the Buddha's Dhamma the term "path" seems to be reserved for the path to Nibbana.

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun May 26, 2019 5:36 am

One is worldly, the other is the escape from the world. The first leads away from more severe forms of suffering, the other from all forms of suffering.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun May 26, 2019 5:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 5:21 am
Greetings DooDoot,

Everything cascades from View.

If one has "Right View with Effluents", there will be "Right Intention with Effluents". Right Intention with Effluents might look like "I will do good deeds, so that I will be reborn in heaven". This Right Intention with Effluents then flows on through the remainder of the other factors. It is a way to higher realms, but it remains tainted because it is rooted in identity, and thus, it is not transcendent, and it is not an end to "wandering on".

I also imagine some non-Buddhist paths might consist of "Right View with Effluents" too, but to your point, in the Buddha's Dhamma the term "path" seems to be reserved for the path to Nibbana.

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
:goodpost:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun May 26, 2019 5:38 am

It would be interesting to know if said sutta was repeated in the Chinese Agamas. This would give some weight to it.

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robertk
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Re: MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

Post by robertk » Sun May 26, 2019 5:45 am

From Ven. Dhammanando :
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1566
Do clasical theravadan teachings hold that rebirth is an importan teaching within the texts?
or do they hold that it happends but is not important to the aim of the path (Arahatship)?
It is held to be an indispensible doctrine. As I wrote in the Great Rebirth Debate thread:
The orthodox understanding is that they have to be taught mundane right view in order to make them ready for ariyan right view. That is to say, there is no possibility of leaping from a state in which wrong view ("there is nothing given, nothing offered...etc.") is ever liable to arise to ariyan right view. Rather, wrong view must be dislodged and the only cause that can effect this is the arising of mundane right view ("there is what is given, there is what is offered...etc."). In effect this means that high attainment in Dhamma is out of the question for those who remain skeptical, agnostic or non-committal regarding the affirmations that constitute mundane right view.
Kammic efficacy and rebirth are part of mundane right view. To reject or doubt rebirth is to suppose that there are some causes that don't yield effects – specifically, that there can be ignorance and craving that will not issue in further becoming. Those of such a view have not understood the conditionality of dhammas even at the intellectual/pariyatti level. To not understand this is to not understand the four noble truths, the three characteristics, or anything else that is of decisive importance in the development of paññā.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

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Re: MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

Post by SarathW » Sun May 26, 2019 7:44 am

Good question DD.
========
There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment.
atthi, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā;
And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.
atthi, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā.

========
Strictly speaking, you can't say "right view that is accompanied by defilement" is Magga because in a technical sense it means "Lokuttara magganga".
It is similar to to the word "view" which always mean "right view" in Sutta.
However, I take the liberty to use "Alokiya magganga" to refer to "right view that is accompanied by defilement"
Because in general sense we all including children are walking on a particular path.
Even a thief is walking on a path but is the wrong path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: MN 117: Is there an "eightfold path" with effluents ???

Post by santa100 » Sun May 26, 2019 3:17 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:It would be interesting to know if said sutta was repeated in the Chinese Agamas. This would give some weight to it.
From Ven. Analayo's A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-nikāya on MN 117:
A somewhat similar exposition of the path factors in their supramundane manifestation can be found in a discourse in the Sayukta-āgama [SA 785], which distinguishes all eight path factors into worldly and supramundane manifestations.110 The description of the first five supramundane path factors in this Sayukta-āgama discourse is similar to the corresponding sections in the Mahācattārīsaka-sutta.

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