Abortion sources

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
User avatar
Will
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: California

Abortion sources

Post by Will » Sat May 11, 2013 7:42 pm

If links or pdfs or cited quotes from the suttas & commentaries on abortion could be given, I would appreciate it.

To clarify my purpose for this thread: I simply want to get many Theravadin sources on the subject and discuss how abortion was viewed around the era of Buddha, not now.
Last edited by Will on Sun May 12, 2013 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 12537
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Abortion sources

Post by DNS » Sat May 11, 2013 8:46 pm

"A Bhikkhu who intentionally kills a human being, down to procuring abortion, is no Samana and no follower of the Sakyaputta."
Mahavagga 1.78 (Vinaya)
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Mv_1.78

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Suttavibhanga

unfavourable rebirth (Ja.V,269)

Monks and nuns are forbidden to procure abortions for others (Digha Nikaya vol. I,11)

http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=3

Zakattack
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:07 am

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Zakattack » Sat May 11, 2013 9:47 pm

To a toddler, who moves about with difficulty, there is not even a self.

Maha-Malunkhyaputta Sutta
Then King Yama presses and questions and cross-questions him about the first divine messenger: ‘Good man, did you not see the first divine messenger to appear in the world?’ He says: ‘I did not, venerable sir.’ Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, have you never seen in the world a young tender infant lying prone, fouled in his own excrement and urine?’ He says: ‘I have, venerable sir.’

Devadūta Sutta - The Divine Messengers
Then for nine or ten months the mother shelters the embryo in her womb with great anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, at the end of nine or ten months, she gives birth with great anxiety, as a heavy burden.

Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta
Suppavāsā, who was seven years pregnant and seven days in difficult labor, has now — well & free from disease — delivered a son free from disease.

Then Ven. Sāriputta said to the child, "I trust, child, that things are bearable for you. I trust that things are comfortable for you. I trust that there's no pain."

"From where, Ven. Sāriputta, would things be bearable for me? From where would they be comfortable for me living seven years in a belly of blood?"

The Blessed One, knowing that Suppavāsā was gratified, joyful, rapturous, & happy, said to her, "Suppavāsā, would you like to have another son like this?"

"O Blessed One, lord, I would like to have seven more sons like this!"

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

The disagreeable
in the guise of the agreeable,
the unlovable
in the guise of the lovable,
pain in the guise of bliss,
overcome
one who is heedless.

Suppavāsā Sutta
Last edited by Zakattack on Sat May 11, 2013 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: California

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Will » Sat May 11, 2013 9:52 pm

Thanks for some sources David.

Here is a definition from Vin. III.73:
Human being means: from the mind’s first arising, from (the time of) consciousness becoming first manifest in a mother’s womb until the time of death, here meanwhile he is called a human being.
From the Brahmajala Sutta:
Whereas some ascetics and Brahmins make their living by such base arts as ... procuring abortions ... the ascetic Gotama refrains from such base arts and wrong means of livelihood.
So not only the act of aborting, but providing abortions is bad kamma, it appears.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

Zakattack
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:07 am

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Zakattack » Sun May 12, 2013 11:22 am

Stressful, painful, is the woman's state:
so says the tamer of tamable people.
Being a co-wife is painful.
Some, on giving birth once,
slit their throats.
Others, of delicate constitution,
take poison.
In the midst of a breech-birth
both [mother & child] suffer destruction.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Ananda26
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:41 pm

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Ananda26 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:08 pm

Precept #1: Abstaining from killing.

Also referred to as: Thou shall not kill.

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: California

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Will » Wed May 15, 2019 6:04 pm

Bumping up this topic, with the reminder of the intent of this thread:

In addition to sources already cited, anything from the canon related to the birth process & the termination in the womb of that entity; also any teachings on kammic results of such.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3868
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed May 15, 2019 9:36 pm

Will wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:04 pm
Bumping up this topic, with the reminder of the intent of this thread:

In addition to sources already cited, anything from the canon related to the birth process & the termination in the womb of that entity; also any teachings on kammic results of such.
“Here, brahmin youth, a certain woman or man is a killer of living beings, cruel, bloody-handed, established in killing. Due to that kamma, on the breakup of the body after death he or she arises in a state of woe, in a bad destination, in hell. If not reborn in hell, if he or she is reborn as a human-being he or she is short-lived. This, brahmin youth, is the result of killing living beings.

http://www.aimwell.org/culakammavibhanga.html
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: California

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Will » Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:36 pm
Will wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:04 pm
Bumping up this topic, with the reminder of the intent of this thread:

In addition to sources already cited, anything from the canon related to the birth process & the termination in the womb of that entity; also any teachings on kammic results of such.
“Here, brahmin youth, a certain woman or man is a killer of living beings, cruel, bloody-handed, established in killing. Due to that kamma, on the breakup of the body after death he or she arises in a state of woe, in a bad destination, in hell. If not reborn in hell, if he or she is reborn as a human-being he or she is short-lived. This, brahmin youth, is the result of killing living beings.

http://www.aimwell.org/culakammavibhanga.html
Thank you Bhante.

The modern focus of many lay Buddhist folk on developmental stage of the baby in the womb misses the bigger point. Human life is a stream over many samsaric lifetimes, thus the bad kamma has more to do with interrupting that stream & putting much negative, sorrowful kamma-phala into that life stream.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

Virgo
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Virgo » Wed May 15, 2019 11:45 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:36 pm
Will wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:04 pm
Bumping up this topic, with the reminder of the intent of this thread:

In addition to sources already cited, anything from the canon related to the birth process & the termination in the womb of that entity; also any teachings on kammic results of such.
“Here, brahmin youth, a certain woman or man is a killer of living beings, cruel, bloody-handed, established in killing. Due to that kamma, on the breakup of the body after death he or she arises in a state of woe, in a bad destination, in hell. If not reborn in hell, if he or she is reborn as a human-being he or she is short-lived. This, brahmin youth, is the result of killing living beings.

http://www.aimwell.org/culakammavibhanga.html
Thank you for sharing that, Bhante. Good translation.

Best,

Kevin
The Hunger Site

________________

SarathW
Posts: 12211
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Abortion sources

Post by SarathW » Thu May 16, 2019 12:56 am

Human being means: from the mind’s first arising, from (the time of) consciousness becoming first manifest in a mother’s womb until the time of death, here meanwhile he is called a human being.
Interesting.
I think Ajahan Braham think that the fetus should be 3months old to call it an abortion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4663
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Jaroen Dhamma Cave, Mae Wang Huai Rin, Lamphun

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Dhammanando » Thu May 16, 2019 1:13 am

From the Petavatthu:
Ghost:
I am a ghost, sir. I am suffering in the world of Yama. I have done an evil deed as a human and have been reborn in the world of ghosts. Every morning, I give birth to five sons and in the evening another five are born. I eat them all that night. But I will still be hungry. My heart is burning with hunger so much that it is smoking. I get no water to drink. See the disaster that has happened to me.

Monk:
Now what evil deed have you done by body, speech, or mind? What have you done so that you have to eat your own sons?

Ghost:
My husband’s other wife was about to give birth. I was extremely jealous of her. With that evil mind, I gave her some medicine that would kill the unborn baby. The two month old embryo flowed out just like blood. The baby’s grandmother became very angry with me and called her relatives. She frightened me and made me swear an oath. I told a terrible lie by saying, “If I was the one who killed the baby, I will eat my own sons!”
As a result of that evil deed and the lie I told, I have to eat my sons and be covered by their blood.
https://suttacentral.net/pv6/en/kiribathgoda
And another similar story, though Sutta Central has it only in German and Vietnamese:
https://suttacentral.net/pv7/de/hecker

Background story to Dhammapada 4
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... /01-04.htm

From the Saṃkicca Jātaka:
Past out from Khuradhāra hell, grim prison house hard to flee,
Abortion-mongers 'scape not thy dread stream, Vetaraṇī.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/ja530
Dictionary of Pali Proper Names:
Vetaraṇī.– A river in the great hell (Mahā niraya) (S.i.21; SN. vs. 674).

Buddhaghosa explains (SNA.ii.482) that this is the name of the great caustic river (mahatā khāraodikā nadī) referred to in the Devadatta Sutta (M.iii.185). Its waters are sharp and bitter (tinhadhārā, khuradhārā) (SN. vs. 674; cf. J.v.269), and the river flows by the Asipattavana. When beings enter it to bathe and drink (because it looks like a sheet of water) they are hacked by swords and other sharp weapons that stand concealed along the river bank. Sometimes Vetaraṇī is used in a general way to indicate hell. (As “desanāsīsa” — e.g. J.iii.473; SA.i.48; cf. J.iv.273). Those guilty of abortion are reborn in the Vetaraṇī-nadī (J.v.269), as are also oppressors of the weak (J.vi.106).
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: California

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Will » Thu May 16, 2019 1:30 am

Venerable one, that Dhammapada commentary lays out the endless degeneration & suffering from abortions done from hatred - amazing & horrific!! Only Buddha's presence broke the cycle.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

befriend
Posts: 1413
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Abortion sources

Post by befriend » Thu May 16, 2019 4:41 pm

Karaniya metta sutta: "wether weak strong medium short or tall those seen and unseen those living near and far away those born and to be born May all beings be at ease"
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3426
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Abortion sources

Post by Mr Man » Thu May 16, 2019 6:40 pm

Will wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 pm

The modern focus of many lay Buddhist folk on developmental stage of the baby in the womb misses the bigger point. Human life is a stream over many samsaric lifetimes, thus the bad kamma has more to do with interrupting that stream & putting much negative, sorrowful kamma-phala into that life stream.
Hi Will
From a Theravada doctrinal perspective is "Human life is a stream over many samsaric lifetimes" correct? What do you mean by stream? And do you mean that "bad kamma" is accrued by interrupting the life stream of an other rather than ones own volition?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests