How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few years?

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by sentinel » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:47 pm

Where could be the dark karma being stored ?
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by Zom » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:57 pm

Kamma is a process (a group of processes) in the world and not a "substance". So it can't be "stored".

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by SilaSamadhi » Mon May 06, 2019 3:12 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:59 am
It seems only the realisation of anatta can end kamma.
Could you cite any references in the Pali Canon supporting these claims? I mean the following two claims:
  1. Realization of Anattā will end kamma.
  2. Only realization of Anattā will end kamma.
Both claims, if well supported, will be quite groundbreaking in my understanding of the Canonical teachings of kamma and anattā.

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 07, 2019 9:10 am

SilaSamadhi wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 3:12 pm
Could you cite any references in the Pali Canon supporting these claims?
AN 6.63 is the stock teaching the noble eightfold path (which culminates in the realisation of not-self, per SN 45.7, for example) ends kamma:
AN 6.63 wrote:The practice that leads to the cessation of deeds is simply this noble eightfold path

Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā

https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato
SN 12.17 below appears to say "a self" or "the one who acts" is not the creator of suffering; but ignorance is the creator of suffering; and when ignorance ends, suffering (and kamma) end.
SN 12.17 wrote:“How is it, Master Gotama: is suffering created by oneself?”

“Not so, Kassapa,” the Blessed One said.

“Then, Master Gotama, is suffering created by another?”

“Not so, Kassapa,” the Blessed One said.

“How is it then, Master Gotama: is suffering created both by oneself and by another?”

“Not so, Kassapa,” the Blessed One said.

“Then, Master Gotama, has suffering arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another?”

“Not so, Kassapa,” the Blessed One said.

“How is it then, Master Gotama: is there no suffering?”

“It is not that there is no suffering, Kassapa; there is suffering.”

“Then is it that Master Gotama does not know and see suffering?”

“It is not that I do not know and see suffering, Kassapa. I know suffering, I see suffering.”

“Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is the same as the one who experiences the result,’ then one asserts with reference to one existing from the beginning: ‘Suffering is created by oneself.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to eternalism. But, Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is one, the one who experiences the result is another,’ then one asserts with reference to one stricken by feeling: ‘Suffering is created by another.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to annihilationism.

Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle: ‘With ignorance as condition, ... formations come to be; with ... formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of ... formations; with the cessation of ... formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.17/en/bodhi
SN 12.37 & SN 35.146 are more ambiguous & subject to various interpretations. But SN 12.37 appears to say "the aggregates" or "kaya" (literally: "group" or '"collection"; aka "body") is "not-self" and "old kamma", in which the "old kamma" is something "to be felt" rather than "identified with":
SN 12.37 wrote:Mendicants, this body doesn’t belong to you or to anyone else. It... should be seen as... old deeds... produced by choices and intentions, as something to be felt.
SN 35.146 distinguishes between "old kamma" & "new kamma", as follows:
SN 35.146 wrote:“And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? The eye is... to be seen as... old kamma, generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. The ear … The mind is ... to be seen as... old kamma, as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. This is called old kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus is new kamma? Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.
In other words, any "identification" with the past is obviously "new mental kamma" and thus not the ending of kamma. SN 35.146 repeats the teaching in AN 6.63 that:
AN 35.146 wrote:The practice that leads to the cessation of deeds is simply this noble eightfold path

Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo kammanirodhagāminī paṭipadā
AN 3.61 contains a similar phrase saying "for one who feels" (rather than for one that engages in self-identifying) the four noble truths, which include the Eightfold Path, are taught:
AN 3.61 wrote:It’s for one who feels that I declare: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.

Vediyamānassa kho panāhaṃ, bhikkhave, idaṃ dukkhanti paññapemi, ayaṃ dukkhasamudayoti paññapemi, ayaṃ dukkhanirodhoti paññapemi, ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadāti paññapemi.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
Thus, when Aṅgulimāla felt pain from being struck with stones, the Buddha according to reports said:
MN 86 wrote:Endure it, brahmin! Endure it, brahmin!

adhivāsehi tvaṃ, brāhmaṇa, adhivāsehi tvaṃ, brāhmaṇa.

https://suttacentral.net/mn86/en/sujato
In other words, the Buddha said: "Feel it, brahmin, feel it"; "don't cling to it; don't identify with it. Its only a feeling".

The Pali word "endure it" is found in DN 16, about the Buddha himself, who felt strong pain without any attachment to it:
DN 16 wrote:After the Buddha had commenced the rainy season residence, he fell severely ill, struck by dreadful pains, close to death.

Atha kho bhagavato vassūpagatassa kharo ābādho uppajji, bāḷhā vedanā vattanti māraṇantikā.

But he endured with mindfulness and situational awareness, without worrying.

Tā sudaṃ bhagavā sato sampajāno adhivāsesi avihaññamāno.

https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato
OK. The above is my immediate 60 minute reply to your question. Kind regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by Bliss » Tue May 07, 2019 12:47 pm

Of course Angulimala had committed very vast bad karma that will result rebirths in hell and bad realms of existence.

However, by attaining the Nirvana, he eliminated the Tanha (greed) which is like water for a plant's growth.

Think of the bad karma like the seeds which will grow into births in hell. One seed means one birth in hell. And he had done numerous bad deeds so there were countless seeds that will result in birth in hell.

But, since he eliminated Tanha (water) by attaining Nirvana, all these bad seeds could not grow into plants since there were no more water for the seeds to rely on.

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by dhammapal » Thu May 09, 2019 12:13 pm

Ven. Walpola Piyananda Thera wrote:Other bhikkhus asked the Buddha where Angulimala was reborn, and when the Blessed One replied, my son Angulimala has attained parinibbana, they could hardly believe it. So they asked whether it was possible that such a man who had in fact killed so many people could have attained parinibbana. To this question, the Buddha replied, "Bhikkhus, Angulimala had done much evil because he did not have good friends. But later, he hound good friends and with their help and good advice he became steadfast and mindful in practicing the dhamma and meditation. Thus, his evil deeds have been overwhelmed by good kamma and his mind has been completely rid of all defilements."
From: Angulimala: A Story of the Power of Compassion by Ven. Walpola Piyananda Thera

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by dhammapal » Thu May 16, 2019 5:37 am

If you believe in beginningless past lives in saṃsāra, we have all spilt more blood cutting beings' throats than there is water in the four great oceans.

If we had to clear the vast amounts of dark karma we have all incurred in beginningless past lives in saṃsāra then we could never attain Awakening.

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 16, 2019 5:53 am

Greetings,
SilaSamadhi wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:34 pm
How could all this dark karma get cleared in just a few years, without even much suffering (the worst in the sources is some minor abuse by families of his former victims)?
The operation of kamma requires the perception of a "self" - known in Pali as asmi-mana (the "I am" conceit).

Asmi-mana is transcended with the attainment of arahantship, thus the cycle of kamma and vipaka is transcended too.

People might yet hate your guts for bad actions previously committed, but that won't be a product of the natural law, defined in the commentaries, as kamma-niyama.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by sentinel » Thu May 16, 2019 6:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:53 am


Asmi-mana is transcended with the attainment of arahantship, thus the cycle of kamma and vipaka is transcended too.


Metta,
Paul. :)
Greetings retro ,

If you could give text reference for the above ?

Thanks
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 16, 2019 6:56 am

Greetings,
sentinel wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:21 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:53 am
Asmi-mana is transcended with the attainment of arahantship, thus the cycle of kamma and vipaka is transcended too.
Greetings retro ,

If you could give text reference for the above ?

Thanks
It's a bit of a composite of things, and doesn't all come from one place.

The pre-comma bit is explained here.

The post-comma bit is a summary of suttas such as...
SN 35.145 wrote:"And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.
SN 12.15 wrote:"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
... and understandings absorbed from reading Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons, though I cannot think of a keyword search that would enable me to find an appropriate section of text... but these come close...
When one comes to think of it, one may find it difficult to understand why decay-and-death are called impermanent and withering or decaying. But the reason is that all concepts, in so far as they are leaning on to the name-and-form bundle, have to fall down when the opposite bundle of reeds is drawn out. That is to say that the entire mass of saṃsāric suffering ceases immediately, and the whirlpool of saṃsāra comes to an end.
Therefore, when the light of wisdom comes and dispels the darkness of ignorance, a similar event can occur. One will come out of that plane of existence. One will step out of the world of sense desires, at least temporarily.
Now, with regard to the arahants, too, the same trend of events holds good. When their ignorance ceases, leaving no residue, avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā, exhausting the influxes as well, preparations also cease. Why? Because the preparations owe their existence to ignorance. They have the ability to prepare so long as there is ignorance.
Saṅkhāra generally means preparations. It is the make-up and the make-believe which accounted for the delusion. The darkness of ignorance provided the setting for it. If somehow or other, the light of wisdom enters the scene, those preparations, saṅkhāra, became no-preparations, visaṅkhāra, and the prepared, saṅkhata, becomes a non-prepared, asaṅkhata.
So what was true with regard to the film show, is also true, in a deeper sense, with regard to the events leading up to the attainment of arahant-hood. With the dawn of that light of wisdom, the preparations, or saṅkhāra, lose their significance and become visaṅkhāra.
Though for the world outside they appear as preparations, for the arahant they are not preparations, because they do not prepare a bhava, or existence, for him. They are made ineffective. Similarly, the prepared or the made-up, when it is understood as something prepared or made-up, becomes an un-prepared or an un-made. There is a subtle principle of un-doing involved in this.
When the cinema hall gets lit up all of a sudden, one who has been enjoying the film show is momentarily thrown out of the cinema world, because those preparations are pacified or nullified, sabba saṅkhārasamatho. As a consequence of it, the heap of experiences which he had hitherto regarded as real and genuine, lose their sanction. Those assets get liquidated or relinquished, sabbūpadhipaṭinissagga. In their absence, that craving necessary for the appreciation or enjoyment of the scenes to come becomes extinct, taṇhakkhayo. When craving is gone, the floridity of the scenes to come also fades away, virāga. With that fading away or decolouration, the film show ceases for the person concerned, nirodha, though technically the movie is going on. Because of that cessation all the fires of defilements proper to the cinema world, with which he was burning, get extinguished, Nibbāna.
Incidentally, the Abhidhamma has its own model for explaining the actions of arahants, and their absence of kammic potency through the use of kiriya dhammas.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by sentinel » Thu May 16, 2019 7:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:56 am
Greetings,


Asmi-mana is transcended with the attainment of arahantship, thus the cycle of kamma and vipaka is transcended too.
Thanks retro but I see no reference sutta about transcending conceit equal to attaining arhatship and overcame vipaka !
Last edited by sentinel on Thu May 16, 2019 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 16, 2019 7:50 am

Greetings sentinel,

Well the bit about the fetter of asmi-mana is explicitly in the suttas. It's one of higher five fetters.

As for the rest, you must understand "the complete cessation of suffering" in a different manner to how I understand it, I guess.

Either way, your question is answered. Whether you find any merit in the explanation is up to you. I'm not perturbed either way.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by sentinel » Thu May 16, 2019 8:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:50 am
Greetings sentinel,

Well the bit about the fetter of asmi-mana is explicitly in the suttas. It's one of higher five fetters.

As for the rest, you must understand "the complete cessation of suffering" in a different manner to how I understand it, I guess.

Either way, your question is answered. Whether you find any merit in the explanation is up to you. I'm not perturbed either way.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hi retro ,

Yeah , this is a norm .

Thanks

Regards
:buddha1:

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by Dhammanando » Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:32 am
Thanks retro but I see no reference sutta about transcending conceit equal to attaining arhatship
There's the Arahatta Sutta:
“Mendicants, without giving up six things you can’t realize perfection (arahatta). What six? Conceit (māna), inferiority complex (omāna), superiority complex (atimāna), overestimation (adhimāna), obstinacy (thambha), and groveling (atinipāta). Without giving up these six qualities you can’t realize perfection.

After giving up six things you can realize perfection. What six? Conceit, inferiority complex, superiority complex, overestimation, obstinacy, and groveling. After giving up these six things you can realize perfection.”

https://suttacentral.net/an6.76/en/sujato
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: How did Aṅgulimāla clear the vast amounts of dark karma he incurred by murdering hundreds of innocents, in a few yea

Post by sentinel » Thu May 16, 2019 10:39 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 am


There's the Arahatta Sutta:
“Mendicants, without giving up six things you can’t realize perfection (arahatta). What six? Conceit (māna), inferiority complex (omāna), superiority complex (atimāna), overestimation (adhimāna), obstinacy (thambha), and groveling (atinipāta). Without giving up these six qualities you can’t realize perfection.

After giving up six things you can realize perfection. What six? Conceit, inferiority complex, superiority complex, overestimation, obstinacy, and groveling. After giving up these six things you can realize perfection.”

https://suttacentral.net/an6.76/en/sujato
Thanks venerable .

The above 6 thing has the same meaning with conceit .

Can (capable of)does not mean equivalent to realisation .


Regards
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