Secular Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 16, 2019 1:24 am

heaven.... lol

Better than sole sovereignty over the earth
Better than going to heaven
Better even than lordship over all the worlds
Is the supramundane Fruition of Stream Entrance.

- Dhp 184
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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cappuccino
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Thu May 16, 2019 1:30 am

since the topic is: right view, I spoke of heaven

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 16, 2019 1:48 am

heaven = right view with asava (pollution) & upadi (attachment)

- MN 117
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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cappuccino
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Thu May 16, 2019 1:58 am

Image
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu May 16, 2019 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 16, 2019 2:03 am

:tongue: :jumping: :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri May 17, 2019 9:44 pm

DooDoot


Nothing in this:
The Buddha refused to have any dealing with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there. is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance [3] ? These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism. Also, the one who asks about such matters has no choice but to indis­criminately believe the answer he's given, because the one who answers is not going to be able to produce any proofs, he's just going to speak according to his memory and feeling. The listener can't see for himself and so has to blindly believe "the other's words. Little by little the matter strays from Dhamma until it's something else altogether, unconnected with the extinction of Dukkha.

Contradicts this:

“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri May 17, 2019 10:21 pm

bridif1
This last bít is the one I'm questioning.
As DooDoot has shown, the interpretation of rebirth is not indisputable in favor of post-mortem continuation of mind tendencies.

Kind regards!
Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the fool that ignorance has not been abandoned and that craving has not been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the fool has not lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body. Faring on to another body, he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

“Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the wise man that ignorance has been abandoned and that craving has been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the wise man has lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body. Not faring on to another body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the wise man and the fool, that is, the living of the holy life.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/bodhi



Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body.

Tasmā bālo kāyassa bhedā kāyūpago hoti,
Therefore ignorant/foolish body dissunion going to exist



Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body

Tasmā paṇḍito kāyassa bhedā na kāyūpago hoti.
Therefore wise/wiseman body dissunion no/not going to exist

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri May 17, 2019 11:14 pm

Aloka
So do you believe in the actual existence of devas, Indra, Brahma, Pajapati,etc, Craig?.....and if so, where can they be found so that one could have a chat to them?

Honestly, I'm unsure. Their existence isn't important to my practice so I can take it either way (existing or fabrications).

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 18, 2019 3:00 am

Saddhā wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:44 pm
“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."
The above is merely a belated translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu thus the words of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. The Thai words were spoken by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in 1961 and Thanissaro ordained in 1976. It is pointless to continue posting Buddhadasa Bhikkhu spoke the above English words; let alone inferred their meaning to be as you are interpreting. I think if a Buddhist with scrupulous faith & morality, who fears "upapajjati" into a lower realm, would email Santikaro and ask about the translation of the well-known 1961 Tua-Ku-Khong-Ku.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Aloka
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Aloka » Sat May 18, 2019 5:56 am

Saddhā wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:44 pm

Nothing in this:

"The Buddha refused to have any dealing with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there. is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance [3] ? These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism. Also, the one who asks about such matters has no choice but to indis­criminately believe the answer he's given, because the one who answers is not going to be able to produce any proofs, he's just going to speak according to his memory and feeling. The listener can't see for himself and so has to blindly believe "the other's words. Little by little the matter strays from Dhamma until it's something else altogether, unconnected with the extinction of Dukkha."

Contradicts this:

“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."

The first quote above (which is an extract from Talk 1 in Heart-Wood of the Bo Tree) continues :
Now, if one doesn't raise those sort of problems, one can ask instead, "Is there Dukkha?" and "How can Dukkha be extinguished ?". To these questions the Buddha agreed to answer and the listener can see the truth of every word of his answer without having to blindly believe them, see more and more clearly until he understands. And if one understands to the extent of being able to extinguish Dukkha, then that is the ultimate understanding. One knows that, even at this moment, there is no person living; one sees without doubt that there is no self or anything belonging to a self. There is just a feeling of "I" and "mine" arising due to the foolishness whereby one is deluded by the beguiling nature of sense - experience.

Therefore, there being no one born here, there is no one who dies and is reborn. So, the whole question of rebirth is utterly foolish and nothing to do with Buddhism at all.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Bhikkh ... o_Tree.htm

:anjali:

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cappuccino
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Sat May 18, 2019 3:17 pm

Aloka wrote:So, the whole question of rebirth is utterly foolish and nothing to do with Buddhism at all.
Buddha always spoke of rebirth

because it's the context for this teaching

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun May 19, 2019 12:48 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:00 am
Saddhā wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:44 pm
“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."
The above is merely a belated translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu thus the words of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. The Thai words were spoken by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in 1961 and Thanissaro ordained in 1976. It is pointless to continue posting Buddhadasa Bhikkhu spoke the above English words; let alone inferred their meaning to be as you are interpreting. I think if a Buddhist with scrupulous faith & morality, who fears "upapajjati" into a lower realm, would email Santikaro and ask about the translation of the well-known 1961 Tua-Ku-Khong-Ku.
Sure, do you have an email address?

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tellyontellyon
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by tellyontellyon » Mon May 20, 2019 10:26 am

To me, my understanding, is that secular 'Buddhists' come at practice from a decided materialist view. So there can be no Karma, beyond this life, no rebirth. But that is rejecting aspects of the core view of Buddhism, intricately woven into the Buddha's teaching.

There is a difference between having an open mind, with doubts, but willing to discover what is truth by practicing the dharma... and ... rejecting what the Buddha said by holding onto your existing views as a prerequisite!

That is all about making Buddhism feel 'safe' for those people who have rejected a theistic view but now cling to a purely materialist view. The apparent 'safety' in this is not a true refuge and it is not right to call it Buddhism.

You can't reject CORE elements of Buddhism and call yourself a Buddhist.

Just in the same way, Muslims believe in some aspects of Christianity... Jesus is Messiah etc., but they reject the trinity, the divinity of Jesus and that Jesus died on the cross.... so you wouldn't call them Christians!

The Buddha never said that Samsara, dependent origination, rebirth etc., were just psychological metaphors.

If you want to be a secular mediator, who has adapted some Buddhist beliefs, have at it.. knock yourself out.

But don't call yourself a Buddhist and don't consider yourself to have taken refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha because you have not.
“To dare is to lose one's footing momentarily. Not to dare is to lose oneself.”
― Søren Kierkegaard

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