If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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bridif1
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:17 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:56 am
Of course, any person with integrity will acknowledge this.

But, perhaps some lessons can be learned from the art of war. A good general will take precaution against all avenues of attack. Lest he be taken by surprise. It does not seem very wise to think, I don't know where the attack might happen so I will not put up diffences in any place. So waits till the attack. That might be too late.

I do not wish this on you, but it is quite possible that we may spend our whole life without personal verification. My main concern is this, a person who takes your position might not be motivated to engage in making merit ( dana etc). But if it turns out rebirth is true that person will have very little provision for that journey.
Personally, I don't think the belief in post-mortem rebirth is a necessary thing to get motivated to act mindfully and in search for the end of searching.

This sounds like the argument used by some christians that if moral is not an objective thing given by god, then the whole society will colapse because humans cannot live mindfully and in compassionate manner for themselves, by their own intelligence and judgement.

Kind regards!

uojm
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by uojm » Wed May 15, 2019 6:18 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:00 am
We seek Nibbana because we need to end Samsara
It is the stopping of suffering which is sought. Ending samsara could be seen as the byproduct.
SarathW wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:58 am
Even if you become an Arahant you still subject to sickness and suffering.
That would be a misunderstanding. The khandhas are not picked up anymore; suffering has ended. Being old kamma the khandhas do what they do, but giving rise to suffering is not within their power and never has been.

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bridif1
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:26 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:08 am
Maybe not but it’s a curious thing to have faith in Nibbana yet have no faith in kamma or rebirth post death.
Yes, it's curious but not impossible.

Everyday practice seem to prove that behavior, thoughts and tendencies can be changed through understanding and repetition. And desire and aversion are examples of such behaviors that can be modified and diminished in influence and manifestation.
Seen the above for oneself, Nibbana does not seem too much of a stretch. It's just the extension of that same process.
I'm not completely sure Nibbana is possible, but evidence seems to suggest it is.

On the other hand, evidence for post-mortem rebirth and continuation of tendencies has, at most, just questionable evidence. But I don't deny the possibility of its existence either. But in contrast to Nibbana, everyday experience and practice do no necessarily show evidence for post-mortem rebirth and post-mortem kamma.

But, yeah...
Both are matters of faith, but of different degree (IMO).

Kind regards!

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Ceisiwr
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 6:34 am

bridif1 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:26 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:08 am
Maybe not but it’s a curious thing to have faith in Nibbana yet have no faith in kamma or rebirth post death.
Yes, it's curious but not impossible.

Everyday practice seem to prove that behavior, thoughts and tendencies can be changed through understanding and repetition. And desire and aversion are examples of such behaviors that can be modified and diminished in influence and manifestation.
Seen the above for oneself, Nibbana does not seem too much of a stretch. It's just the extension of that same process.
I'm not completely sure Nibbana is possible, but evidence seems to suggest it is.

On the other hand, evidence for post-mortem rebirth and continuation of tendencies has, at most, just questionable evidence. But I don't deny the possibility of its existence either. But in contrast to Nibbana, everyday experience and practice do no necessarily show evidence for post-mortem rebirth and post-mortem kamma.

But, yeah...
Both are matters of faith, but of different degree (IMO).

Kind regards!
Trust in the Buddha is required for both

Srilankaputra
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed May 15, 2019 6:38 am

bridif1 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:17 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:56 am
Of course, any person with integrity will acknowledge this.

But, perhaps some lessons can be learned from the art of war. A good general will take precaution against all avenues of attack. Lest he be taken by surprise. It does not seem very wise to think, I don't know where the attack might happen so I will not put up diffences in any place. So waits till the attack. That might be too late.

I do not wish this on you, but it is quite possible that we may spend our whole life without personal verification. My main concern is this, a person who takes your position might not be motivated to engage in making merit ( dana etc). But if it turns out rebirth is true that person will have very little provision for that journey.
Personally, I don't think the belief in post-mortem rebirth is a necessary thing to get motivated to act mindfully and in search for the end of searching.

This sounds like the argument used by some christians that if moral is not an objective thing given by god, then the whole society will colapse because humans cannot live mindfully and in compassionate manner for themselves, by their own intelligence and judgement.

Kind regards!
I think you missed my point. I'm not saying to believe in rebirth. I'm saying take some precaution against that possibility in the present life.

By the way the saddha I was taught is not at all like the Christian conception of faith. It is more of a confidence based on our own wisdom.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 9:42 pm

Interesting topic.

Since Nibbana is the ending of "birth" & the ending of "kamma", how is believing in "birth" & "kamma" related to believing in Nibbana as well?

If "birth" & "kamma" are believed to be real tangible things, how can they be ceased so Nibbana is realised?

If Nibbana is the ending of "physical birth", how can Nibbana be realised in the here & now, "touching the Deathless with the body", as the suttas say?

It seems to the only way to attain Nibbana, according to the rationale of the OP, is suicide. :shock:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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