Secular Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:47 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:45 am
I have confidence in the Sangha....
You appear to be ignoring MN 95, which says:
Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statement of the brahmans turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmans turn out to be groundless?"
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:49 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:46 am
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:43 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:39 am
I don’t trust you.
I am not seeking your trust. Since our views are different, we appear not comrades in the same dhamma.

The most common word in the suttas translated as "rebirth" is "upapajjati", as found below:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not tenable.
‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,
Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

so it would follow that one’s self arises and vanishes.
Yassa kho pana uppādopi vayopi paññāyati, ‘attā me uppajjati ca veti cā’ti iccassa evamāgataṃ hoti.

That’s why it’s not tenable to claim that
Tasmā taṃ na upapajjati:

the eye is self.
‘cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
Obviously upapajjati does not mean "rebirth". But you claim to trust in the Buddha. :pig:

:strawman: :jedi:


And that alternative translations all convey the same idea
Yes... but in no translations of MN 148 does "upapajjati" mean "rebirth". Yet "upapajjati" is the most common word translated as "rebirth". This appears to provide the case that those translators you have faith in might be like a string of blind men, as the Buddha referred to in MN 95:pig:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 15, 2019 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:47 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:45 am
I have confidence in the Sangha....
You appear to be ignoring MN 95, which says:
Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statement of the brahmans turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmans turn out to be groundless?"

Selective

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:51 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:49 am
Selective
Not at all. Even Thanissaro gave a talk on MN 95, claiming much of Buddhism is similar to the Brahmanism the Buddha criticised in MN 95.

Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 15, 2019 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:49 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:46 am
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:43 am

I am not seeking your trust. Since our views are different, we appear not comrades in the same dhamma.

The most common word in the suttas translated as "rebirth" is "upapajjati", as found below:

Obviously upapajjati does not mean "rebirth". But you claim to trust in the Buddha. :pig:

:strawman: :jedi:


And that alternative translations all convey the same idea
Yes... but in no translations of MN 148 does "upapajjati" mean "rebirth". Yet "upapajjati" is the most common word translated as "rebirth". This appears to provide the case that those translators you have faith in might be like a string of blind men, as the Buddha referred to in MN 95:pig:

Do post the translations of that word.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:55 am

The sutta is quite clearly a criticism of blind faith but not a criticism of reasoned confidence where a teaching is taken as a working hypothesis which can possibly be false. This hypothesis is then tested and only then can you say “this is true, all else is worthless”.

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:56 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:52 am
Do post the translations of that word.
Sorry but the information has been provided. MN 148 is unambiguous. Here is another translation of another sutta with the same word:
“Householder, you don’t have the distrust in the Buddha that causes an uneducated ordinary person to be reborn—when their body breaks up, after death—in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

“Yathārūpena kho, gahapati, buddhe appasādena samannāgato assutavā puthujjano kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ nirayaṃ upapajjati tathārūpo te buddhe appasādo natthi.

https://suttacentral.net/sn55.26/en/sujato
How do you reconcile the above with the below: :shrug:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not tenable.
‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,
Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

so it would follow that one’s self arises and vanishes.
Yassa kho pana uppādopi vayopi paññāyati, ‘attā me uppajjati ca veti cā’ti iccassa evamāgataṃ hoti.

That’s why it’s not tenable to claim that
Tasmā taṃ na upapajjati:

the eye is self.
‘cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 5:00 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:55 am
The sutta is quite clearly a criticism of blind faith but not a criticism of reasoned confidence where a teaching is taken as a working hypothesis which can possibly be false.
Given I recall you have recently taken birth as a "science student", obviously you know a hypothesis is not truth or fact. :roll: I recall I already posted a common term in the suttas about faith is "verified faith". The suttas even refer to "unshakeable faith". The impression is your ideas about "saddha" are either Christian-like or similar to New Age Foo Foo.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 5:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:00 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:55 am
The sutta is quite clearly a criticism of blind faith but not a criticism of reasoned confidence where a teaching is taken as a working hypothesis which can possibly be false.
Given I recall you have recently taken birth as a "science student", obviously you know a hypothesis is not truth or fact. :roll: I recall I already posted a common term in the suttas about faith is "verified faith". The suttas even refer to "unshakeable faith". The impression is your ideas about "saddha" are either Christian-like or similar to New Age Foo Foo.

:focus:

A hypothesis can be confirmed as being certain and true in rare circumstances and so becomes a fact. The spherical Earth hypothesis being one of them.

I don’t say that rebirth and kamma post death is certain and true, but I have confidence that such things exist. I will only say it’s true when I know for myself.

That would be a false interpretation.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 5:12 am

Seems it means “arisesable”. What’s your point?

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 5:20 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:12 am
Seems it means “arisesable”. What’s your point?
It doesn't appear to mean "ariseable". The different word "arise" ("uppajjati") is in the sutta; with a completely different meaning.

My point is "upapajjati" doesn't appear to mean the "reincarnation" type of "rebirth". Yet, in your new found "faith" here, I gain the impression you have made many claims on this thread to know exactly what the Buddha taught.
Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu wrote:The entire premise of your question is faulty, unfortunately. The Buddha never, afaik, used a term that could be translated as "rebirth".

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... 0113#10113
MN 95:
Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statement of the brahmans turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction (saddhā) of the brahmans turn out to be groundless?"

:jumping:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 15, 2019 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:20 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:12 am
Seems it means “arisesable”. What’s your point?
My point is it doesn't appear to mean the "reincarnation" type of "rebirth". Yet, in your new found "faith" here, I gain the impression you have made many claims on this thread to know exactly what the Buddha taught.
Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu wrote:The entire premise of your question is faulty, unfortunately. The Buddha never, afaik, used a term that could be translated as "rebirth". In fact, the idea of anything being reborn goes against orthodox early Buddhist teachings. Throughout the Buddha's teachings, it is made clear that at the breakup of the body there is birth, not rebirth - as in birth of new things, not the return of anything old.

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... 0113#10113

I mean, this is a load of dung.

I make as many claims about the Buddha as you do. Once again you set up straw men, and how mightily you destroy them. Meanwhile, I’m sat over here feeling neglected.

The Ven. can quibble with the term of “something” being continued but that isn’t what I’m suggesting nor is it what most orthodox Theravadins suggest. Another straw man it seems.

There is of course jati of self in each moment in this life. Post death:

“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."

Change “ endless rebirth” to “endless jati” and it seems your whole objection collapses into oblivion.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed May 15, 2019 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

bridif1
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 5:30 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:09 am
A hypothesis can be confirmed as being certain and true in rare circumstances and so becomes a fact. The spherical Earth hypothesis being one of them.

I don’t say that rebirth and kamma post death is certain and true, but I have confidence that such things exist. I will only say it’s true when I know for myself.

That would be a false interpretation.
Hi Saddha!

What does it mean to have confidence in the existence of something?

It means that you 'believe' its existence is real/true?

Is this "belief" part of the Path?
If so, how does that "belief" helps to cultivate and develop the Path?

Kind regards!

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 5:34 am

bridif1 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:30 am
What does it mean to have confidence in the existence of something?
The holy scriptures say: "Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 5:41 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
I make as many claims about the Buddha as you do.
I think my claims are educated or researched. My two examples of "upapajjati" obviously had you stumped.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
The Ven. can quibble with the term of “something”...
Sorry but the Ven appeared to correctly say "upapajjati" does not literally mean "rebirth". MN 148 appears to strongly support the Ven.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
There is of course jati of self in each moment in this life. Post death:
Sorry but the suttas appear to definitely say "jati" happens before "death" rather than after "death". Refer to SN 12.2.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
“"Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."
This translation by Thanissaro is questionable and I imagine done when he was a young monk.
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 am
Change “ endless rebirth” to “endless jati” and it seems your whole objection collapses into oblivion.
Sorry but Buddhadasa has thousands of times explained his views on "jati". I recommend to avoid misrepresenting him. There are many monks you can take refuge in, such as Ajahn Brahm, Sujato, Brahmali, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Analayo, etc.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 15, 2019 5:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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