Secular Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:25 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:23 am
clw_uk wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:13 am
An old mind doesn’t enter a new one.
Sorry but you appear to be contradicting yourself. You previously said: "The underlying tendency. The newborns conditioned existence arising from the previous existence."

Where is the contradiction?

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:26 am

clw_uk wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:22 am
accurate
MN 95. Is about verifying doctrines.
Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:26 am
clw_uk wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:22 am
accurate
MN 95. Is about verifying doctrines.
Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

Little relevancy bore?

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:29 am
Little relevancy bore?
Many folks misinterpret MN 95 and turn it into a "no views" suttas. When MN 95 says:
'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'"
This is about Brahministic beliefs. The Buddha is addressing the unverified declarations of the Brahmins.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 15, 2019 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:32 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:29 am
Little relevancy bore?
Many folks misinterpret MN 95 and turn it into a "no views" suttas.

Ok. I’m not “many folks”.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:34 am

The passage is about not declaring things as certain until you know for yourself. In terms of rebirth this means having confidence in the teaching but no declaring it’s certain until you know for yourself.

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:34 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:32 am
Ok. I’m not “many folks”.
I have already answered your wrong views about MN 95. Obviously the discussion is finished, given you offered no quotes from MN 95 to support your ideas.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:36 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:34 am
The passage is about not declaring things as certain until you know for yourself. In terms of rebirth this means having confidence in the teaching but no declaring it’s certain until you know for yourself.
You can't know "rebirth" for yourself because it seems the Buddha didn't even teach about your version of it. Trust me. You will never verify it.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:36 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:34 am
The passage is about not declaring things as certain until you know for yourself. In terms of rebirth this means having confidence in the teaching but no declaring it’s certain until you know for yourself.
You can't know "rebirth" for yourself because it seems the Buddha didn't even teach about your version of it.
Nothing I have said is against what the Buddha said.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:39 am

I don’t trust you.

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:40 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:38 am
Nothing I have said is against what the Buddha said.
More baseless claims. Its funny how the more fundamentalist folks are about "rebirth"; how sloppy their talk is. Now you are claiming to know exactly what the Buddha taught; even though you just declared you have unverified faith that should be verified. Another contradiction, it seems. :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:42 am

But I do trust the Buddha, Ven. Chah, Ven. Nanananda and of course:

“Even when we think the body has died, the "self" is unwilling to cease. When this happens, there is endless rebirth-samsara."

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DooDoot
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 15, 2019 4:43 am

Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:39 am
I don’t trust you.
I am not seeking your trust. Since our views are different, we appear not comrades in the same dhamma.

The most common word in the suttas translated as "rebirth" is "upapajjati", as found below:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not tenable.
‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,
Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

so it would follow that one’s self arises and vanishes.
Yassa kho pana uppādopi vayopi paññāyati, ‘attā me uppajjati ca veti cā’ti iccassa evamāgataṃ hoti.

That’s why it’s not tenable to claim that
Tasmā taṃ na upapajjati:

the eye is self.
‘cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
Obviously upapajjati does not mean "rebirth". But you claim to trust in the Buddha. :pig:

:strawman: :jedi:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Ceisiwr
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:40 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:38 am
Nothing I have said is against what the Buddha said.
More baseless claims. Its funny how the more fundamentalist folks are about "rebirth"; how sloppy their talk is. Now you are claiming to know exactly what the Buddha taught; even though you just declared you have unverified faith that should be verified. Another contradiction, it seems. :roll:

I have confidence in the Sangha which means I have confidence in the core teachings of the Buddha and I have confidence in monks and nuns both past and alive today. What I don’t have confidence in is Nick from Australia.

I have trust which could be wrong. I don’t declare it’s certainty until I know for myself.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Secular Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 4:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:43 am
Saddhā wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:39 am
I don’t trust you.
I am not seeking your trust. Since our views are different, we appear not comrades in the same dhamma.

The most common word in the suttas translated as "rebirth" is "upapajjati", as found below:
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not tenable.
‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṃ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,
Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

so it would follow that one’s self arises and vanishes.
Yassa kho pana uppādopi vayopi paññāyati, ‘attā me uppajjati ca veti cā’ti iccassa evamāgataṃ hoti.

That’s why it’s not tenable to claim that
Tasmā taṃ na upapajjati:

the eye is self.
‘cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
Obviously upapajjati does not mean "rebirth". But you claim to trust in the Buddha. :pig:

:strawman: :jedi:


And that alternative translations all convey the same idea

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