If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

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SarathW
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If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by SarathW » Tue May 14, 2019 8:00 am

If you do not believe Jati (birth) and Kamma means that you do not believe in Nibbana as well?

We seek Nibbana because we need to end Samsara.
Samsara means the repeated births with the consequence of your Kamma.
On that basis, I would say if there is no Samsara there is no need for Nibbana.

Note: Correction to Jati. It was posted as Bhava.
Last edited by SarathW on Tue May 14, 2019 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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bridif1
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Re: If you do not believe Bhava (birth) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by bridif1 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:52 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:00 am
If you do not believe Bhava (birth) and Kamma means that you do not believe in Nibbana as well?

We seek Nibbana because we need to end Samsara.
Samsara means the repeated births with the consequence of your Kamma.
On that basis, I would say if there is no Samsara there is no need for Nibbana.
Hi Sarath!

Maybe some people don't interpret 'bhava' as birth (I thought 'jati' was birth, or according to some, rebirth), but as a sense of "becoming something", a renewal of the mind and a re-focusing of the senses based on craving and grasping.

Maybe some don't interpret 'samsara' as a cosmic wandering through lives and lives, but simply as wandering on with constant suffering and insatisfaction due to ignorance of how things truly are.

Maybe some people don't interpret 'kamma' as a cosmic law of cause and effect which transcends lives, but rather as the process in which the mind acquires, creates and eradicates habits, tendencies and patterns of behavior/thought.

Maybe some people don't interpret 'Nibbana' as the end of the cycle of rebirth, but rather as the stoping of "becoming", the end of craving and ignorance, and the attainment of unconditioned satisfaction, peace and content beyond the senses.

Maybe some people don't read such concepts in a supernatural manner, but instead in a empirical and practical (only for this life) basis.
And maybe you can believe in the possibility of Nibbana while at the same time not believe in literal/traditional interpretation of the above concepts.

Kind regards!

SarathW
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Re: If you do not believe Bhava (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by SarathW » Tue May 14, 2019 8:58 am

Thanks.
It is corrected as Jati.
The problem with one life model is that people are still suffering from Sankhara Dukkha unless you are an Arahant.
Even if you become an Arahant you still subject to sickness and suffering.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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bridif1
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Re: If you do not believe Bhava (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by bridif1 » Tue May 14, 2019 9:06 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:58 am
Thanks.
It is corrected as Jati.
The problem with one life model is that people are still suffering from Sankhara Dukkha unless you are an Arahant.
Even if you become an Arahant you still subject to sickness and suffering.
And how is that problem exclusive to the one-life model?

Kind regards!

SarathW
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Re: If you do not believe Bhava (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by SarathW » Tue May 14, 2019 9:16 am

Because the OP is about the people who think that there is no other life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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bridif1
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Re: If you do not believe Bhava (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by bridif1 » Tue May 14, 2019 9:24 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:16 am
Because the OP is about the people who think that there is no other life.
You said:
We seek Nibbana because we need to end Samsara. Samsara means the repeated births...
But as I said, I think we can see samsara as a process happening in this very life, and still believe in the possibility of attaining Nibbana and end the suffering of repeated becoming and unsatisfied craving.

Then you said:
The problem with one life model is that people are still suffering from Sankhara Dukkha...


Then I asked how is that a problem of the one-life model. If you say that that problem ia found in that model, I tend to interpret that as saying that multiple-lives models are not subjected to this issue.
Am I reading this wrongly?

If not, I don't see the logic behind this.

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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by sunnat » Tue May 14, 2019 1:32 pm

There is no need to believe in nibbana. There's no need to believe in a lot of things on the path. Indeed, sometimes time spent believing or not believing in things is a waste of time. As one progresses on the path, equanimously, continuously, observing the rising and passing away of any and all things, truths reveal themselves without one looking for them. Deeper and deeper truths are realised. The not self nature of things previously clung to, identified with, is realised and the suffering that arises as one clings to that which is not self, impermanent, transitory, decaying, rising and passing away becomes clear. Not because a Buddha said so but through direct experience. In time a faith grows and a confidence is realised that, yes, the path is leading to an ultimate truth as told by the fully self realised one, Lord Buddha. Not because he said so or because anyone else said so or because it is something read or surmised but because one has the direct experience gained through walking the talk. All the stages on the path are thus realised, one after the other. No point on trying to skip ahead. Certainly study can inspire but progress, and realisation, comes through practice.

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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by sentinel » Tue May 14, 2019 2:20 pm

If one life only , do what you wish , but don't hurt other people . Practising is null .
:coffee:

SarathW
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by SarathW » Tue May 14, 2019 8:58 pm

But as I said, I think we can see samsara as a process happening in this very life, and still believe in the possibility of attaining Nibbana and end the suffering of repeated becoming and unsatisfied craving.
Good point.
That is the model now I am working on.
But I feel it lacks something.
Perhaps our learned member may help us.

For instance, Angulimala kept on killing people until his life ended because he experienced some happiness by killing.
Perhaps this is a good formula for a suicide bomber.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed May 15, 2019 4:20 am

I blame the many years of mental conditioning we have to endure in modern education systems. Makes us stuck in a Newtonian world view. Making it impossible to even imagine how rebirth might happen.

When we catch sight interdependence of namarupa and consciousness it can be seen that the world is far weirder and ethereal than it appears. Actually Christians might be far closer to the truth than science. Scientists might be coming closer with their simulation theories and all.

imo
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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bridif1
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 4:33 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:20 am
I blame the many years of mental conditioning we have to endure in modern education systems. Makes us stuck in a Newtonian world view. Making it impossible to even imagine how rebirth might happen.

When we catch sight interdependence of namarupa and consciousness it can be seen that the world is far weirder and ethereal than it appears. Actually Christians might be far closer to the truth than science. Scientists might be coming closer with their simulation theories and all.

imo
Hi Srilankaputra!

Are you talking about personal and direct verification before stating the reality or falsehood of some phenomena?
Is that a product of "Newtonian View"?

I've read a lot of suttas where the term "direct knowledge" is used, in contrast to learning ideas from authorities, traditions or mere intuition/common sense.

As some "secular buddhist" say, we can put aside ideas not YET verified, and without assuring the reality or falsehood beneath those ideas.

Kind regards!

SarathW
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by SarathW » Wed May 15, 2019 5:05 am

As some "secular buddhist" say, we can put aside ideas not YET verified, and without assuring the reality or falsehood beneath those ideas.
If you put them aside (rejected), how could you self verified them?
You have rejected them because you can't understand it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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bridif1
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 5:24 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:05 am
As some "secular buddhist" say, we can put aside ideas not YET verified, and without assuring the reality or falsehood beneath those ideas.
If you put them aside (rejected), how could you self verified them?
You have rejected them because you can't understand it.
I put that "YET" on purpose to say that I'm continuing with my practice while not focusing to much on speculation about what I'm not able to verify YET.
I'm rejecting nothing. I'm not accepting it either. It's on hold for now.

I just want to clarify what my position is on this topic:
I now that rebirth is part of the Dhamma. What I put on hold is the idea of a post-mortem rebirth and continuation of kamma from on life to another. For now, I know nothing about it, and so, I can't reject it as false or accept it as an absolute truth. That's just it.

Kind regards!

Srilankaputra
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed May 15, 2019 5:56 am

bridif1 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:33 am
I've read a lot of suttas where the term "direct knowledge" is used, in contrast to learning ideas from authorities, traditions or mere intuition/common sense.
Of course, any person with integrity will acknowledge this.

But, perhaps some lessons can be learned from the art of war. A good general will take precaution against all avenues of attack. Lest he be taken by surprise. It does not seem very wise to think, I don't know where the attack might happen so I will not put up diffences in any place. So waits till the attack. That might be too late.

I do not wish this on you, but it is quite possible that we may spend our whole life without personal verification. My main concern is this, a person who takes your position might not be motivated to engage in making merit ( dana etc). But if it turns out rebirth is true that person will have very little provision for that journey.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: If you do not believe birth (Jati) and Kamma means that you do not believe Nibbana as well?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 15, 2019 6:08 am

Maybe not but it’s a curious thing to have faith in Nibbana yet have no faith in kamma or rebirth post death.

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