will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
form
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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by form » Sun May 12, 2019 10:10 am

budo wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:09 pm
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:42 am
budo wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 5:55 am
Just the other day I was listening to a dhamma talk by a respected monk and he said the Buddha is always in first jhana no matter what. I shook my head and disqualified that teacher.
Don't be so quick to judge. There is much truth in the statement.
A Discourse on the Hemavata Sutta wrote:The Buddha Never Neglected Jhāna
Hemavata asked whether Sātāgiri’s teacher, the Buddha, never neglected jhāna, or in other words, whether he was fully aware so that he could reject all lustful desire, which is an impediment to Arahant­­ship. Hanker­ing after pleasant things and indulging in pleasures is a basic impediment. If one is free of that, one is said to have attained the first stage of jhāna. Now this question is just a corollary to the question of lassitude. Thus, Hemavata had put these questions relating to misdeeds of a physical nature, namely, killing, stealing, and the sexual act. He then asked about jhāna.
...
The Buddha Entered Jhāna Very Rapidly
The Buddha was consistently in jhāna, and for that he is adorable. At the end of part of a discourse, while the audience exclaimed in one voice, “Sādhu! Sādhu! Sādhu! (Well said!),” the Buddha went into jhāna even during that brief interval. Then he resumed the discourse. Such consistency is really marvel­lous.
Source: http://www.aimwell.org/hemavata.html
Dear Bhante,

this isn't what the monk said, the monk said he is always in first jhana. And let me explain why the Buddha isn't always in first jhana.

First, the most obvious reason, if the Buddha was always in first jhana, he wouldn't have to enter first jhana. And yes, that isn't the case, the Buddha has to intentionally enter first jhana, regardless of how easy it is for him. Yet, when the Buddha is eating, he is not in first jhana, when he is walking he is not in first jhana, which leads me to the second point.

Yes, the Buddha does not have the 5 hindrances, which is only one part of the requirements for first jhana, the other part of the requirement is seclusion. As it is piti and sukha born of seclusion in first jhana. Whereas in second jhana the piti and sukha are born of composure.

One cannot be eating and have seclusion, one cannot be hearing noises and have seclusion, as noise is a thorn to first jhana.

The Buddha does not always have seclusion, an example:
At that time Ven. Rahula[1] was staying at the Mango Stone. Then the Blessed One, arising from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to where Ven. Rahula was staying at the Mango Stone. Ven. Rahula saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, set out a seat & water for washing the feet. The Blessed One sat down on the seat set out and, having sat down, washed his feet. Ven. Rahula, bowing down to the Blessed One, sat to one side.
-MN 61

There are many examples of the Buddha leaving places to attain seclusion, such as leaving crowded monasteries.

So no, the Buddha is not always in first jhana.
How about he is at least in access concentration?

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by jabalí » Sun May 12, 2019 11:09 am

budo wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:32 pm
Furthermore, there are suttas where the Buddha gives examples of proper meditation like the sutta on focusing on a bowl on your head (single objectness) while someone walks behind you with a sword, if you drop some oil, you will lose your head. Or the suttas of 6 animals representing the 6 senses, tied to a post (one object).
Why don't you mention that the "post" is referring to mindfulness of the body?
How do you put those instructions into practice?

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun May 12, 2019 2:38 pm

This is very interestng;

From the puggalapannatti(Designation of human types)

ṭhitakappī - Eon-arrester
What sort of person is one for whom an aeon endures?

Should such a person strive for realisation of the fruition stage of a stream-attainer, and should it then be the time for the conflagration of the existing aeon, the aeon must not be burnt up until this person realises the desired state: this person is said to be one for whom an aeon endures.
I guess the Dhamma will endure until the last person destined to attain the path is born.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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robertk
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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by robertk » Sun May 12, 2019 3:40 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 2:38 pm
This is very interestng;

From the puggalapannatti(Designation of human types)

ṭhitakappī - Eon-arrester
What sort of person is one for whom an aeon endures?

Should such a person strive for realisation of the fruition stage of a stream-attainer, and should it then be the time for the conflagration of the existing aeon, the aeon must not be burnt up until this person realises the desired state: this person is said to be one for whom an aeon endures.
I guess the Dhamma will endure until the last person destined to attain the path is born.
Because fruition moment inevitably and instantly follows path moment.

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by budo » Sun May 12, 2019 10:29 pm

robertk wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:40 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 2:38 pm
This is very interestng;

From the puggalapannatti(Designation of human types)

ṭhitakappī - Eon-arrester
What sort of person is one for whom an aeon endures?

Should such a person strive for realisation of the fruition stage of a stream-attainer, and should it then be the time for the conflagration of the existing aeon, the aeon must not be burnt up until this person realises the desired state: this person is said to be one for whom an aeon endures.
I guess the Dhamma will endure until the last person destined to attain the path is born.
Because fruition moment inevitably and instantly follows path moment.
If it instantly follows path moment, then why the emphasis of this?
"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry ghosts. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry ghosts. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

— SN 25.1-10
If it was instantly then why would that be specified?

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by robertk » Mon May 13, 2019 3:54 am

If it was instantly then why would that be specified
To emphasize that it must happen.

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by budo » Mon May 13, 2019 8:57 am

robertk wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:54 am
If it was instantly then why would that be specified
To emphasize that it must happen.
That's not the variable we're discussing, we're discussing time, you wrote instantly. The sutta implies otherwise. If it must happen instantly then passing away is irrelevant.

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by budo » Mon May 13, 2019 10:07 am

robertk wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:54 am
If it was instantly then why would that be specified
To emphasize that it must happen.
Furthermore, to continue and add to my previous post.

If it happens instantly, then why would a noble disciple (ariyasavaka) need to develop the 7 factors of stream entry fruit?
When a noble disciple has these seven factors, they have properly investigated their own nature with respect to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry.
- MN 48

A noble disciple is an ariya. In this case, an ariya who has not attained the fruit of stream entry. They only attain the fruit of stream entry after "they have properly investigated their own nature with respect to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry" meaning, there are noble disciples who do not have those 7 factors stated in MN 48, and thus have not attained the fruit of stream entry.

and Thanissaro's translation
“A disciple of the noble ones thus endowed with seven factors has well examined the character for the realization of the fruit of stream entry. A disciple of the noble ones thus endowed with seven factors is endowed with the fruit of stream entry.
Again, implying that there are noble ones, ariyas, who do not have the fruit of stream entry because they have yet to develop those 7 factors.

And in MN48 it shows that Right View is attained before Experiential Confidence, which is the fruit.
Furthermore, a mendicant lives according to the view shared with their spiritual companions, both in public and in private. That view is noble and emancipating, and leads one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering.
happens before they attain jhana, and after they attain jhana this happens:
They understand:

‘There is nothing that I’m overcome with internally and haven’t given up, because of which I might not accurately know and see.

My mind is properly disposed for awakening to the truths.’

This is the first knowledge they have achieved that is noble and transcendent, and is not shared with ordinary people.
Their third knowledge is a verification of view
‘There are no ascetics or brahmins outside of the Buddhist community who have the same kind of view that I have.’
AND another sutta to consider


SN 55.24

Faith followers and Dhamma followers are ariyas, but do not have fruit.
Take another person who doesn’t have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … They don’t have laughing wisdom or swift wisdom, nor are they endowed with freedom. Still, they have these qualities: the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. And they accept the principles proclaimed by the Realized One after considering them with a degree of wisdom. This person, too, doesn’t go to hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. They don’t go to places of loss, bad places, the underworld.

Take another person who doesn’t have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … They don’t have laughing wisdom or swift wisdom, nor are they endowed with freedom. Still, they have these qualities: the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. And they have a degree of faith and love for the Buddha. This person, too, doesn’t go to hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. They don’t go to places of loss, bad places, the underworld. If these great sal trees could understand what was well said and poorly said, I’d declare them to be stream-enterers. Why can’t this apply to Sarakāni? Mahānāma, Sarakāni the Sakyan undertook the training at the time of his death.
Sarakani was a follower for a long time though.
“It’s incredible, it’s amazing! Who can’t become a stream-enterer these days? For the Buddha even declared Sarakāni to be a stream-enterer after he passed away. Sarakāni was too weak for the training; he used to drink alcohol.”

Then Mahānāma the Sakyan went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what had happened. The Buddha said:

“Mahānāma, when a lay follower has for a long time gone for refuge to the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, how could they go to the underworld? And if anyone should rightly be said to have for a long time gone for refuge to the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, it’s Sarakāni the Sakyan. Sarakāni the Sakyan has for a long time gone for refuge to the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha. How could he go to the underworld?
So how come, Sarakani did not attain fruition instantly? and instead only at the time of his death? If it were true that fruition instantly follows path, then Sarakani would have attained it long ago.

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by robertk » Mon May 13, 2019 10:46 am

So how come, Sarakani did not attain fruition instantly? and instead only at the time of his death? If it were true that fruition instantly follows path, then Sarakani would have attained it long ago
He attained path and fruit at the time of death, in one process, in flash. See the pic below taken from the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma
maggaphala.JPG

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by robertk » Mon May 13, 2019 10:50 am

budo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:57 am
robertk wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:54 am
If it was instantly then why would that be specified
To emphasize that it must happen.
That's not the variable we're discussing, we're discussing time, you wrote instantly. The sutta implies otherwise. If it must happen instantly then passing away is irrelevant.
In some processes of citta the process may be incomplete. See
http://www.abhidhamma.org/Patthana%203%20chapter_7.htm
Sense-door process and mind-door process of cittas

When a sense object, which is rúpa, impinges on one of the sensedoors,

it is experienced by several cittas arising in a sense-door process.

Counting from the "past bhavanga", there are seventeen moments of

citta if the sense-door process of cittas runs its full course. Rúpa lasts as

long as seventeen moments of citta, and thus it falls away when that

process is over. The seventeen moments of citta are as follows:

1 atíta-bhavanga (past bhavanga)

164 Åyatanas.

2 bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga).154

3 bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga

arising before the object is experienced through the

sense-door)

4 five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness

(pañcadvåråvajjana-citta), which is a kiriyacitta

5 sense-cognition (dvi-pañcaviññåùa, seeing-consciousness,

etc.), which is vipåkacitta

6 receiving-consciousness (sampaìicchana-citta), which is

vipåkacitta

7 investigating-consciousness (santíraùa-citta) which is

vipåkacitta

8 determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) which is

kiriyacitta

9 javana-citta ("impulsion", kusala citta or akusala citta in the

case of non-arahats)

10 " "

11 " "

12" "

13" "

14" "

15" "

16 registering-consciousness (tadårammaùa-citta) which may or

may not arise,
and which is vipåkacitta

17 registering-consciousness

A sense-door process does not always run its full course. When a rúpa

impinges on one of the senses it may happen that more than three

bhavanga-cittas pass before the sense-door adverting-consciousness

arises, and then the process cannot run its full course, but it is

interrupted earlier, since rúpa cannot last longer than seventeen

moments of citta. The rúpa may have fallen away before the

tadårammaùa-citta is due to arise, and in that case the process ends

with the javana-cittas. The process of cittas which experience rúpa may

also end its course with the votthapana-citta, determining-consciousness,

and then the javana-cittas do not arise. Or it may happen.155

that the "vibrating bhavanga", bhavanga calana, succeeds the past

bhavanga, atíta-bhavanga, but that the arrest bhavanga,

bhavangupaccheda (last bhavanga before the stream of bhavanga-cittas

is arrested and a sense-door process begins), does not arise and then

there cannot be any sense-door process. In that case there is a "futile

course".

However in that brief process when path and fruit occur it is inevitable that the fruit occurs immediately after the path moment..

....Tato param dve tini phalacittani pavattitva nirujjhanti…

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budo
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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by budo » Mon May 13, 2019 11:08 am

robertk wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:46 am
So how come, Sarakani did not attain fruition instantly? and instead only at the time of his death? If it were true that fruition instantly follows path, then Sarakani would have attained it long ago
He attained path and fruit at the time of death, in one process, in flash. See the pic below taken from the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma

maggaphala.JPG

I don't think that's true, he clearly attained faith which created the path.

And how do you explain this?
“Here, a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by serenity. As he is developing insight preceded by serenity, the path is generated. He pursues this path, develops it, and cultivates it. As he is pursuing, developing, and cultivating this path, the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies are uprooted.
AN 4.170

Hence, one attains faith, develops the path, attains experiential knowledge and confidence of the Buddha and destroys the fetter of doubt.

This is the fruit not coming instantly, just like Sarakani's fruit did not come instantly.

Fruition requires cultivation and development.

Also, if you were to take your theory as true, then you would be implying that there are Stream Winners with fruit who do not have experiential confidence of the Buddha. As dhamma and faith followers are Ariyas. Are you claiming Dhamma and Faith followers have stream entry fruit but no experiential confidence of the Buddha? You can't ignore this contradiction.

There is no Faith-Follower Phala or Dhamma-Follower Phala, only Sotapanna phala. There are only eight classes of Ariyas:
(8) “Just as the great ocean is the abode of great beings such as timis . . . [204] . . . gandhabbas; and as there are in the great ocean beings with bodies one hundred yojanas long . . . five hun-dred yojanas long, so too this Dhamma and discipline is the abode of great beings: the stream-enterer, the one practicing for realization of the fruit of stream-entry; the once-returner,

the one practicing for realization of the fruit of once-returning; the non-returner, the one practicing for realization of the fruit of non-returning; the arahant, the one practicing for arahant-ship. This is the eighth astounding and amazing quality that the bhikkhus see in this Dhamma and discipline because of which they take delight in it. “These, Pahārāda, are the eight astounding and amazing qualities that the bhikkhus see in this Dhamma and discipline because of which they take delight in it.”
-AN 4.20.8

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon May 13, 2019 1:31 pm

budo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:08 am
Fruition requires cultivation and development.
robertk wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:50 am

However in that brief process when path and fruit occur it is inevitable that the fruit occurs immediately after the path moment..

....Tato param dve tini phalacittani pavattitva nirujjhanti…
Both true i think;
"There is the case where a monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release.[1] He attends to the cessation of self-identification, but as he is attending to the cessation of self-identification his mind doesn't leap up, grow confident, steadfast, or firm in the cessation of self-identification. For him the cessation of self-identification is not to be expected. Just as if a man were to grasp a branch with his hand smeared with resin, his hand would stick to it, grip it, adhere to it; in the same way, the monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release. He attends to the cessation of self-identification, but as he is attending to the cessation of self-identification his mind doesn't leap up, grow confident, steadfast, or firm in the cessation of self-identification. For him the cessation of self-identification is not to be expected.

"Now, there is the case where a monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release. He attends to the cessation of self-identification, and as he is attending to the cessation of self-identification his mind leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & firm in the cessation of self-identification. For him the cessation of self-identification is to be expected. Just as if a man were to grasp a branch with a clean hand, his hand would not stick to it, grip it, or adhere to it; in the same way, the monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release. He attends to the cessation of self-identification, and as he is attending to the cessation of self-identification his mind leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & firm in the cessation of self-identification. For him the cessation of self-identification is to be expected.

"Now, there is the case where a monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release. He attends to the breaching of ignorance, but as he is attending to the breaching of ignorance his mind doesn't leap up, grow confident, steadfast, or firm in the breaching of ignorance. For him the breaching of ignorance is not to be expected. Just as if there were a waste-water pool that had stood for countless years, where a man were to block all the inlets and open all the outlets, and the sky were to not rain down in good streams of rain: the breaching of the waste-water pool's embankment would not be expected; in the same way, the monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release. He attends to the breaching of ignorance, but as he is attending to the breaching of ignorance his mind doesn't leap up, grow confident, steadfast, or firm in the breaching of ignorance. For him the breaching of ignorance is not to be expected.

"Now, there is the case where a monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release. He attends to the breaching of ignorance, and as he is attending to the breaching of ignorance his mind leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & firm in the breaching of ignorance. For him the breaching of ignorance is to be expected. Just as if there were a waste-water pool that had stood for countless years, where a man were to open all the inlets and block all the outlets, and the sky were to rain down in good streams of rain: the breaching of the waste-water pool's embankment would be expected; in the same way, the monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release. He attends to the breaching of ignorance, and as he is attending to the breaching of ignorance his mind leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & firm in the breaching of ignorance. For him the breaching of ignorance is to be expected

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by budo » Mon May 13, 2019 4:02 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:31 pm
budo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:08 am
Fruition requires cultivation and development.
robertk wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:50 am

However in that brief process when path and fruit occur it is inevitable that the fruit occurs immediately after the path moment..

....Tato param dve tini phalacittani pavattitva nirujjhanti…
Both true i think;

They can't be both true, it's quite simple.

If Dhamma and Faith followers are Ariya, then according to robert and commentaries, they must have a fruit. What fruit is it? There are only 8 ariya types defined, only 4 of those are fruit, with Dhamma and Faith followers being part of the Sotapanna Magga type.

Otherwise they must concede that there are Ariyas without fruit (aka they have no experiential confidence in the Buddha).

The only argument they have is that Dhamma and Faith followers only last for a brief mind moment, but this would go against several suttas, like the Sarakani one and the Ananda one talking about developing the path.

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon May 13, 2019 6:13 pm

budo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:02 pm
If Dhamma and Faith followers are Ariya, then according to robert and commentaries, they must have a fruit.
I don't think that's right. One who is on the sure path to become a sotapanna is classed as an Ariya. But the Abhidhamma does not describe a magga-citta and a phala-citta for this stage. The sotapatti-magga-citta occurs at the very end of the sotapatti-magga just before breakthrough in to sotapatti-hood.

Sotapatti-magga needs to be developed until the breakthrough moment of sotapatti-magga-citta giving rise to sotapatti-phala-citta.

It's like when throwing a basket ball , you keep throwing until one at last goes through the hoop.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: will Buddhism finally ended up as a self-deceiving religion like others

Post by budo » Tue May 14, 2019 7:31 am

Which is exactly my point. The path is born with faith and right view, as the suttas say.

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