The Dhamma and Science

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:10 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:06 am
:clap:
Many here are Westerners (rather than Burmese or Sri Lankans). We have experienced Western Christians behave similar to the above, where they hold & celebrate their Christian superstition is superior to modern science. Ironic how those that believe in unknowable things, such as reincarnation & gods, ridicule modern science.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:11 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:53 am
clw_uk wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:27 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:21 am
The difference is:


The higher one's understanding in Science,
The higher one's ability to appreciate its
incompleteness.


The higher one's understanding in Buddha's Dhamma,
The higher one's the ability to appreciate its
completeness.

Huh?
How crazy, that's crystal clear and resonant with me.
No offense meant, it's just interesting how people's minds are different and interesting and not the same as me.
Agreed.
Also in total agreement with this:
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:27 am
Don't take science as absolute truth. Take science as a good working theory.
Don't take Buddhism as absolute truth. Take Buddhism as a good working theory.
The key word, imo, is "working."

Along with advancement (thanks to working) in Science,
more questions arise. [not necessarily bad]

Along with advancement (thanks to working) in Dhamma,
less questions remain.

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

chownah
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by chownah » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:15 am

Thoughts?
Isn't it amazing the degree to which scientists have been able to augment and extend the six sense media!!!!

Isn't it amazing the variety and surprise of the various construals which are made from what they find!!!!

Isn't it amazing how based on the extension of the senses and the construals which are applied to them how accurately predictions can be made over several vast fields of phenomena!!!!!

chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:16 am

clw_uk wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:13 pm
There comes a time when, after a very long period has passed, this cosmos (world) contracts.

Hoti kho so, bhikkhave, samayo, yaṃ kadāci karahaci dīghassa addhuno accayena ayaṃ loko saṃvaṭṭati.

As the cosmos contracts, sentient beings are mostly headed for the realm of streaming radiance.

Saṃvaṭṭamāne loke yebhuyyena sattā ābhassarasaṃvattanikā honti.

There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

Te tattha honti manomayā pītibhakkhā sayaṃpabhā antalikkhacarā subhaṭṭhāyino, ciraṃ dīghamaddhānaṃ tiṭṭhanti..

https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/sujato
Compare the above to the following:
We who have nothing
Susukhaṃ vata jīvāma,

live so very happily.
yesaṃ no natthi kiñcanaṃ;

We’ll feed on rapture,
Pītibhakkhā bhavissāma,

like the gods of streaming radiance.”
devā ābhassarā yathā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn4.18/en/sujato
Compare to the following:
167. Follow not the vulgar way; live not in heedlessness; hold not false views; linger not long in worldly existence.

171. Come! Behold this world, which is like a decorated royal chariot. Here fools flounder, but the wise have no attachment to it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
And this:
For it is in this fathom-long carcass with its perception and mind that I describe the world, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.

Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadanti.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.45/en/sujato
If a "scientific approach" is taken to the original verse, it appears to say:

1. When the (ordinary sensual) world or worldliness contracts... that is, for those beings who have nothing worldly...

2. Those beings head for the world of streaming joyful radiance, which is the 2nd jhana...

MN 79 says "jhana" is also a "world" ("loka"). It is possible the original verse from DN 1 does not refer to a material world.

:smile:
“It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption.

“Idhudāyi, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati;

As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption.

vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā … pe … dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati;

With the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption.

pītiyā ca virāgā … pe … tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati—

This is the grounded path for realizing a world of perfect happiness.”

ayaṃ kho sā, udāyi, ākāravatī paṭipadā ekantasukhassa lokassa sacchikiriyāyā”ti

https://suttacentral.net/mn79/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:10 am

I am exceedingly thankful for the science and the related personnel. Without science, it would not be possible to listen to the teachings of my favorite Dhamma talks preserved in original voices with the impact emanating from full "emotional" and experiential presence.

That said, Even if there were complete understanding about the rise and fall or whatever of the Scientific universe without reservation, it would never lead to complete cessation of suffering, without the help of Buddha's Dhamma.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Dan74-MkII
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by Dan74-MkII » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:46 am

clw_uk wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:13 pm
How do we approach Suttas which go against current scientific knowledge? For example, modern science tells us that a Big Crunch and a cyclic universe is impossible due to the increasing rate of expansion of the universe. The only two options are the Big Rip or the Big Freeze. This contradicts the sutta below. How should we approach and interpret said suttas? Should we dismiss suttas that contradict science, or should we believe the suttas despite the science? If we simply dismiss the science because of faith, how does that make us any better than Christians who dismiss evolution because of their faith in the Bible and creationism?

Thoughts?

"He recalls to mind his various temporary states in days gone by – one birth, or two or three or four or five births, 10 or 20, 30 or 50, a 100 or a 1,000 or a 100,000 births, through many cycles of cosmic contraction and cosmic expansion . . . Now there comes a time, when sooner or later, after the lapse of a long, long period of contraction, this world-system passes away. And when this happens beings have mostly been re-born in the World of Radiance, and there they dwell made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from themselves, traversing the air, dwelling in glory; and thus they remain for a long, long period of time. Now there comes also a time, friends, when sooner or later, this universe begins to re-evolve by expansion.” (Digha Nikaya 1 Brahmajala Sutta)
I simply don't worry about it. But then I don't need to believe that the Buddha knew everything and never made mistakes either. Just that his teachings provide a necessary guide to relinquish ignorance and delusion.

pegembara
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by pegembara » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 am

Buddhists truths are experiential truths and doesn't require science or mathematics which are conventional truths. Even if the Big Rip or the Big Freeze are true, you are still going to have aging, sickness and death or are you?
"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'...

"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

binocular
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by binocular » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:27 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:15 am
Isn't it amazing the degree to which scientists have been able to augment and extend the six sense media!!!!

Isn't it amazing the variety and surprise of the various construals which are made from what they find!!!!

Isn't it amazing how based on the extension of the senses and the construals which are applied to them how accurately predictions can be made over several vast fields of phenomena!!!!!
Isn't it amazing how one's theory of mind shapes one's perceptions!
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by binocular » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:30 am

clw_uk wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:13 pm
How do we approach Suttas which go against current scientific knowledge? For example, modern science tells us that a Big Crunch and a cyclic universe is impossible due to the increasing rate of expansion of the universe. The only two options are the Big Rip or the Big Freeze. This contradicts the sutta below. How should we approach and interpret said suttas? Should we dismiss suttas that contradict science, or should we believe the suttas despite the science? If we simply dismiss the science because of faith, how does that make us any better than Christians who dismiss evolution because of their faith in the Bible and creationism?

Thoughts?
I think it comes down to who one considers one's reference group, one's peers, one's friends, one's prospective friends.

The primary function of believing a particular cosmological/cosmogonical narrative appears to be obtaining and maintaining membership in a particular social group. Beyond that, those narratives really don't matter.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:03 am

Dan74-MkII wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:46 am
clw_uk wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:13 pm
How do we approach Suttas which go against current scientific knowledge? For example, modern science tells us that a Big Crunch and a cyclic universe is impossible due to the increasing rate of expansion of the universe. The only two options are the Big Rip or the Big Freeze. This contradicts the sutta below. How should we approach and interpret said suttas? Should we dismiss suttas that contradict science, or should we believe the suttas despite the science? If we simply dismiss the science because of faith, how does that make us any better than Christians who dismiss evolution because of their faith in the Bible and creationism?

Thoughts?

"He recalls to mind his various temporary states in days gone by – one birth, or two or three or four or five births, 10 or 20, 30 or 50, a 100 or a 1,000 or a 100,000 births, through many cycles of cosmic contraction and cosmic expansion . . . Now there comes a time, when sooner or later, after the lapse of a long, long period of contraction, this world-system passes away. And when this happens beings have mostly been re-born in the World of Radiance, and there they dwell made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from themselves, traversing the air, dwelling in glory; and thus they remain for a long, long period of time. Now there comes also a time, friends, when sooner or later, this universe begins to re-evolve by expansion.” (Digha Nikaya 1 Brahmajala Sutta)
I simply don't worry about it. But then I don't need to believe that the Buddha knew everything and never made mistakes either. Just that his teachings provide a necessary guide to relinquish ignorance and delusion.
Buddha knew everything whatsoever is required for liberation, and never ever made mistakes in this regard, and accordingly in any other regards for He didn't teach anything unrelated to liberation.

And another thing, I don't believe what Buddha knew was limited to his teachings, but his teachings are enough for liberation.




And regarding science, There will never be such thing as an evidence-based crash-course on Buddhaless therapy (or voyage) for accelerated Nibbana.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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DooDoot
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:06 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:03 am
Buddha knew everything whatsoever is required for liberation, and never ever made mistakes in this regard, and accordingly in any other regards for He didn't teach anything unrelated to liberation.
Only a Ariya-Puggala (Noble Enlightened Person) knows this. Flagging waving & cheering about this does not make it true. Many here are Westerners (rather than Burmese or Sri Lankans). We have experienced Western Christians behave similar to the above, where they hold & celebrate their Christian superstition is the true salvation.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Dan74-MkII
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by Dan74-MkII » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:31 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:03 am
Dan74-MkII wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:46 am
clw_uk wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:13 pm
How do we approach Suttas which go against current scientific knowledge? For example, modern science tells us that a Big Crunch and a cyclic universe is impossible due to the increasing rate of expansion of the universe. The only two options are the Big Rip or the Big Freeze. This contradicts the sutta below. How should we approach and interpret said suttas? Should we dismiss suttas that contradict science, or should we believe the suttas despite the science? If we simply dismiss the science because of faith, how does that make us any better than Christians who dismiss evolution because of their faith in the Bible and creationism?

Thoughts?


I simply don't worry about it. But then I don't need to believe that the Buddha knew everything and never made mistakes either. Just that his teachings provide a necessary guide to relinquish ignorance and delusion.
Buddha knew everything whatsoever is required for liberation, and never ever made mistakes in this regard, and accordingly in any other regards for He didn't teach anything unrelated to liberation.
Perhaps so. But then there is this story in Vinaya of the Buddha instructing monks on the loathsomeness of the body and a whole lot of them after doing the practice committing suicide. The Buddha then comes back from a retreat and instructs the surviving monks in anapannasati. Of course it is brushed away by saying that those monks had the kamma to die like this and the Buddha knew it would happen.. but... if you find this plausible, then, well.. confirmation bias is strong with you... :) So what does it imply? Maybe the story isn't true and was included for a purpose. Maybe it is true and the Buddha made a mistake. Or maybe there is a third alternative. I don't know.
And another thing, I don't believe what Buddha knew was limited to his teachings, but his teachings are enough for liberation.
You and I can believe whatever pleases us. Hopefully some of it will aid us in our practice, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking our believes have universal validity.
And regarding science, There will never be such thing as an evidence-based crash-course on Buddhaless therapy (or voyage) for accelerated Nibbana.
Probably not, but who knows. Doesn't sound very appealing I agree.

Srilankaputra
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:36 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:10 am
I am exceedingly thankful for the science and the related personnel.
Me too. I have utmost respect for scientists. It can't be a small amount dedication and effort that is required to become an expert in any field.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Dan74-MkII
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by Dan74-MkII » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:51 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:36 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:10 am
I am exceedingly thankful for the science and the related personnel.
Me too. I have utmost respect for scientists. It can't be a small amount dedication and effort that is required to become an expert in any field.
:goodpost:

Luckily the Dhamma and science do not contradict each other in any significant ways, so we don't have to choose.

alfa
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Re: The Dhamma and Science

Post by alfa » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:47 pm

Dan74-MkII wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:51 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:36 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:10 am
I am exceedingly thankful for the science and the related personnel.
Me too. I have utmost respect for scientists. It can't be a small amount dedication and effort that is required to become an expert in any field.
:goodpost:

Luckily the Dhamma and science do not contradict each other in any significant ways, so we don't have to choose.
Sure about that? Rebirth, hungry ghosts, hell realms?

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