Buddha knew all along

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polo
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Buddha knew all along

Post by polo » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:48 am

We are sitting on a huge piece of rock which perpetually goes round and round the sun for whatever reason or reasons we don't know.
We have evil thoughts to wipe out our enemies or perceived enemies with our huge stock piles of nuclear weapons. Otherwise why built some much of them?
You need really bad and evil thoughts to do such things on such a large scale. Buddha knew all along human beings born with their defective minds would need to be taught the "Metta".
Is there any guarantee that the people who control the buttons would not be psychotic ? Any members of Dhamma wheel know how they control the military in charge of the nuclear stations. Is it fool proof?
Buddha said his teaching would disappeared around 2,500 years, so we are quite near that period now. Did he mean we would encounter world annihilation?
"while you are chanting and thinking good thoughts someone press the buttons"

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DNS
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by DNS » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 am

polo wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:48 am
Buddha said his teaching would disappeared around 2,500 years, so we are quite near that period now. Did he mean we would encounter world annihilation?
"while you are chanting and thinking good thoughts someone press the buttons"
The teachings die out and then after some long period a new samma-sam-buddha appears, with the next one being Maitreya (Pali: Metteyya) currently residing in Tusita heaven (according to traditional buddhist cosmology). There are other teachings which refer to whole world systems arising and disappearing, for example in DN 1:
"He recalls to mind his various temporary states in days gone by – one birth, or two or three or four or five births, 10 or 20, 30 or 50, a 100 or a 1,000 or a 100,000 births, through many cycles of cosmic contraction and cosmic expansion . . . Now there comes a time, when sooner or later, after the lapse of a long, long period of contraction, this world-system passes away. And when this happens beings have mostly been re-born in the World of Radiance, and there they dwell made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from themselves, traversing the air, dwelling in glory; and thus they remain for a long, long period of time. Now there comes also a time, friends, when sooner or later, this universe begins to re-evolve by expansion.” (Digha Nikaya 1 Brahmajala Sutta)
Is there any guarantee that the people who control the buttons would not be psychotic ? Any members of Dhamma wheel know how they control the military in charge of the nuclear stations. Is it fool proof?
I believe they are all tested for physical and mental health (those that man the missile silos and have the responsibility for launching them, when or if needed). I've seen a documentary and 60 Minutes interview with the Soviet Colonel who saved the world back in 1983. The Soviet satellites incorrectly received signals that the U.S. had launched a first-strike on the Soviet Union. The leaders of the USSR ordered the deployment of their nuclear missiles to major U.S. cities. The colonel asked for more information and he was again given orders to launch. He refused again, saying he needs more information before nuking out the entire U.S. (and possibly the rest of the planet from the massive radiation exposure). The colonel did more checking and after some minutes called off the launch, as it was found to be solar flares from the sun. That colonel apparently saved the world that day.

Perhaps his picture should be on our currency.

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Stanislav Petrov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov

SarathW
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by SarathW » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:24 am

I believe they are all tested for physical and mental health
What was the mental health of the people who used nuclear bomb in Japan?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:52 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:24 am
I believe they are all tested for physical and mental health
What was the mental health of the people who used nuclear bomb in Japan?
They were ok.
The thing is, nobody really had to take responsibility except the president. And for him it was said in an office on the other side of the world.
The president said Do It, and everyone else was just doing their job. Individually each person only did a small part, and probably meant well, didn't get much bad kamma for it.

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dylanj
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by dylanj » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:50 am

At a time when rulers are unprincipled, officials become unprincipled. When officials are unprincipled, holy men and householders become unprincipled. When holy men and householders are unprincipled, the people of town and country become unprincipled. When the people of town and country are unprincipled, the courses of the moon and sun become erratic. … the courses of the stars and constellations … the days and nights … the months and fortnights … the seasons and years become erratic. … the blowing of the winds becomes erratic and chaotic. … the deities are angered. … the heavens don’t provide enough rain. … the crops ripen erratically. When people eat crops that have ripened erratically, they become short-lived, ugly, weak, and sickly.

-AN 4.70

The time will come, though, when there is famine...
The time will come, though, when there is danger and an invasion of savage tribes. Taking power, they will surround the countryside...

-AN 5.78

At present, brahmin, people are excited by illicit lust, overcome by unrighteous greed, afflicted by wrong Dhamma. As a result, they take up weapons and slay one another...
When this happens, sufficient rain does not fall. As a result, there is a famine, a scarcity of grain; the crops become blighted and turn to straw...
When this happens, the yakkhas release wild spirits...
Hence many people die.

-AN 3.56

There will come a time, mendicants, when these people will have children who live for ten years. Among the people who live for ten years, girls will be marriageable at five. The following flavors will disappear: ghee, butter, oil, honey, molasses, and salt. The best kind of food will be finger millet, just as fine rice with meat is the best kind of food today.

The ten ways of doing skillful deeds will totally disappear, and the ten ways of doing unskillful deeds will explode in popularity. Those people will not even have the word ‘skillful’, still less anyone who does what is skillful. And anyone who disrespects mother and father, ascetics and holy men, and fails to honor the elders in the family will be venerated and praised, just as the opposite is venerated and praised today.

There’ll be no recognition of the status of mother, aunts, or wives and partners of teachers and respected people. The world will become promiscuous, like goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, and dogs and jackals.

They’ll be full of hostility towards each other, with acute ill will, malevolence, and thoughts of murder. Even a mother will feel like this for her child, and the child for its mother, father for child, child for father, brother for sister, and sister for brother. They’ll be just like a deer hunter when he sees a deer—full of hostility, ill will, malevolence, and thoughts of killing.

Among the people who live for ten years, there will be an interregnum of swords lasting seven days. During that time they will see each other as beasts. Sharp swords will appear in their hands, with which they’ll take each other’s life, crying ‘It’s a beast! It’s a beast!’

-DN 26

There comes a time when, after a very long period has passed, the rain doesn’t fall. For many years, many hundreds, many thousands, many hundreds of thousands of years no rain falls. When this happens, the plants and seeds, the herbs, grass, and big trees wither away and dry up, and are no more...

...this great earth and Sineru the king of mountains erupt in one burning mass of fire. And as they blaze and burn the flames are swept by the wind as far as the Brahmā realm. Sineru the king of mountains blazes and burns, crumbling as it’s overcome by the great fire. And meanwhile, mountain peaks a hundred leagues high, or two, three, four, or five hundred leagues high disintegrate as they burn. And when the great earth and Sineru the king of mountains blaze and burn, no soot or ash is found...

...So impermanent are preparations, so unstable are preparations, so unreliable are preparations. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all preparations.

-AN 7.66
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

santa100
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by santa100 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:01 pm

polo wrote:Buddha said his teaching would disappeared around 2,500 years, so we are quite near that period now. Did he mean we would encounter world annihilation?
You mean in the next 2,500 years from now? Unfortunately it could be much shorter than that due to climate change. Stephen Hawking, one of the brightest scientists in the world predicted we only get about another 500 years before checkmate. Factoring in the possibility of some world leader with an unstable mind who knows the launch code and presses the buttons, it could get even shorter. But that doesn't mean it's the end of everything. As long as sentient beings still haven't abandoned greed, hatred, and delusion, when this earth is toasted, there'll be plenty of other homes out there for us earthlings to get reborn into.
"Life, Uh, Finds a Way" ~~ Dr. Ian Malcolm - Jurassic Park 1993 ~~

polo
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by polo » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:37 pm

santa100 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:01 pm
polo wrote:Buddha said his teaching would disappeared around 2,500 years, so we are quite near that period now. Did he mean we would encounter world annihilation?
You mean in the next 2,500 years from now? Unfortunately it could be much shorter than that due to climate change. Stephen Hawking, one of the brightest scientists in the world predicted we only get about another 500 years before checkmate. Factoring in the possibility of some world leader with an unstable mind who knows the launch code and presses the buttons, it could get even shorter. But that doesn't mean it's the end of everything. As long as sentient beings still haven't abandoned greed, hatred, and delusion, when this earth is toasted, there'll be plenty of other homes out there for us earthlings to get reborn into.
"Life, Uh, Finds a Way" ~~ Dr. Ian Malcolm - Jurassic Park 1993 ~~
No, not the next 2,500 years from now. From the time when he talked about this matter so we are about more or less within the time frame, give or take another 70 years.

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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:04 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 am
I believe they are all tested for physical and mental health (those that man the missile silos and have the responsibility for launching them, when or if needed). I've seen a documentary and 60 Minutes interview with the Soviet Colonel who saved the world back in 1983. The Soviet satellites incorrectly received signals that the U.S. had launched a first-strike on the Soviet Union. The leaders of the USSR ordered the deployment of their nuclear missiles to major U.S. cities. The colonel asked for more information and he was again given orders to launch. He refused again, saying he needs more information before nuking out the entire U.S. (and possibly the rest of the planet from the massive radiation exposure). The colonel did more checking and after some minutes called off the launch, as it was found to be solar flares from the sun. That colonel apparently saved the world that day.

Perhaps his picture should be on our currency.

Image

Stanislav Petrov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
Whats' even more scary, is there have been many close calls like this over the years :cry:

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by AgarikaJ » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:33 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 am
polo wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:48 am
Buddha said his teaching would disappeared around 2,500 years
The teachings die out and then after some long period a new samma-sam-buddha appears, with the next one being Maitreya (Pali: Metteyya) currently residing in Tusita heaven (according to traditional buddhist cosmology).
To be corrected if I am wrong, but the Buddha gave the exact number of years for the Dhamma to be watered down and practically ineffective for most as 500 years in the Vinaya, following the first Bikkhuni ordination.
Incidentally this would have been around the time where unbroken lineages from teacher to disciple were not possible any more to document (there are famous inscriptions from Andra Pradesh where such lineages to direct disciples of the Buddha are documented over 14 "generations", but after this no such inscriptions are known).

There is a section in the Anguttara Nikaya where it is calculated that until the complete vanishing of any sign of the Dhamma it will take 2,500 years; incidentally this would mark the time of complete loss of the (Theravadin) Bikkhuni Sangha which survived in some regions to the north of Thailand until the late 19th or even into the 20th century (the Dhamma cannot be properly experienced any more without all four assemblies in existence).

Maybe it is also mere coincidence, that all the big meditation masters of Thailand who could arguably have been true Arahants were born before 1957 (which would be the year 2,500 following the Thai Solar Calendar).
Remark: my lacking knowledge in Sri Lankan Buddhism prevents me to assess if there are potential Arahants of younger age living there at the moment (I am sure somebody with better knowledge will chime in on this).

Mahaviran Theravadins take it, that the Buddha was not clear in his words -- in itself a questionable supposition, I believe -- and really meant a larger number (following Buddhaghosa's commentary to the Cullavagga that this initial number would have been 5,000).

Different Mahayana sects have again different numbers and interpretations (see the Lotus Sutra as a start).

But to my knowledge there is no specific number given until Metteyya will be born. There is a famous old temple in Chiang Mai containing a Bikkhuni ordination hall, not because nuns were ordained there, but in the actual expectation that Metteyya will be reborn imminently (or was already at the time, as one of the Lanna kings) and therefore the re-instation of new orders of Bikkhus and Bikkhunis was looming and such a building would therefore be necessary.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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DNS
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by DNS » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:33 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:33 am
To be corrected if I am wrong, but the Buddha gave the exact number of years for the Dhamma to be watered down and practically ineffective for most as 500 years in the Vinaya, following the first Bikkhuni ordination.
The extra rules for bhikkhunis allowed the Dispensation to last longer than that. The Suttas don't give an exact number of years, however, the Commentaries state about 5,000 years, so that's in about 2,400 years from now.

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manas
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by manas » Wed May 22, 2019 5:33 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:24 am
I believe they are all tested for physical and mental health
What was the mental health of the people who used nuclear bomb in Japan?
:goodpost: Yes, I wonder how they could go through with it, knowing so many thousands of civilians were down there, men, women, children. "Just following orders" is a non-excuse.
From what's dear is born grief,
from what's dear is born fear.
For one freed from what's dear
there's no grief
— so how fear?


Dhp 212

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed May 22, 2019 5:51 pm

manas wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 5:33 pm
SarathW wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:24 am
I believe they are all tested for physical and mental health
What was the mental health of the people who used nuclear bomb in Japan?
:goodpost: Yes, I wonder how they could go through with it, knowing so many thousands of civilians were down there, men, women, children. "Just following orders" is a non-excuse.
I imagine they thought it was going to swiftly end the war, which it did.

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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by pyluyten » Wed May 22, 2019 8:34 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:24 am
I believe they are all tested for physical and mental health
What was the mental health of the people who used nuclear bomb in Japan?
Nazis lost war, with millions of dead people. Which is lucky, because it was far from obvious WWII would be won. After this drama, Japan kept fighting and was killing Allies every single day. The plan was to launch one bomb so they finally surrender. But they did not surrender, they kept following the Emperor.

I do not mean this was the right choice to launch a bomb. But it's easy to judge now war is won.

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by AgarikaJ » Fri May 24, 2019 1:49 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 5:51 pm
I imagine they thought it was going to swiftly end the war, which it did.
pyluyten wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:34 pm
I do not mean this was the right choice to launch a bomb. But it's easy to judge now war is won.
One wrong does not allow a second wrong, especially not in Buddhist morale. Also: " one must accumulate good deeds and shun all evil. ... Evil karma breeds evil fruits".

As such, moral judgement is not difficult here, even when done in the light of what was actually known to the individual actors of the time, instead of using 20/20 hindsight.

Additionally, let's just analyse the main plank of the argument, that the atomic bombs indeed ended the war, instead of being detonated as a highly cynic morally corrupt and repugnant signal towards Russia that expansion will not be allowed by the USA in a foreshadowing of the Cold War:

- The Bomb Didn’t Beat Japan … Stalin Did

If there is a scale of immorality, I would propose Truman/the Americans with their targeted bombings (nuclear and otherwise) of civilian centers to be on exactly the same lowest of the low denominator with Hitler and his concentration camps or Stalin and his Gulags.
Only as the winners, they and Stalin got to write the history and avoid their own equivalent of the Nuremberg trials; delusion about this dark chapter in US history has as direct consequence, that we see many Americans to this day being openly proud about the "spotless" moral standing of their country and its self-chosen role as 'policeman of the world'.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Buddha knew all along

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue May 28, 2019 6:53 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:49 pm


If there is a scale of immorality, I would propose Truman/the Americans with their targeted bombings (nuclear and otherwise) of civilian centers to be on exactly the same lowest of the low denominator with Hitler and his concentration camps or Stalin and his Gulags.
That sounds like an extremely profound, well-thought out and moreover, nuanced, opinion.

To which saintly, and ahimsic nation do you belong to yourself?

I ask you because I know you are not so cowardly as to throw darts at others while fearing the outing of hypocrisy of someone who is hiding skeletons in their own closet?

When my little brother visited Nanjing I found his historical tales interesting so it will be fascinating, as the logical person you are, to show how you weight your scale in comparison. I'm sure the algorithmic precision will not fail to impress.

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