Theravada against mathematics

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Germann
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Post by Germann » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:17 am

Dan74-MkII wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:11 pm
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:06 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:47 pm
The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.
That doesn’t follow.
No, it doesn't. Nor does the maths, incidentally.
Explain how the deterministic recombination algorithm of a finite number of elements in an infinite number of steps does not give a combination of elements that is possible (the probability of which is not equal to zero). Absurd. Post a thesis on a math forum and see what will answer you.

An infinite number of steps of such an algorithm is a countable set. For an infinite set of moments, every step should have already happened if the algorithm was already running. The endless repetition of the same combinations means that a combination that is not one of them is impossible.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:34 am

Sherab wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:29 pm
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:52 pm
Nibbana, being outside this set of parameters, hasn't happened for all beings.
That was my primary argument against Germann's proposition. Basically, my argument was that Nibbana is unconditioned. Being unconditioned, it can never be a member of the infinite set of all casually chained events.
Nibbana has no kammic reasons, but its manifestation has conditions. The realization of Nibbana is the well-known sequence of dhammas. This sequence of dhammas, if possible, has a non-zero probability.

Do we have a deterministic algorithm for reaching Nibbana in an infinite number of steps, do we allow random combinations of dhammas - if we deny a subject to freely choose combinations - any possible combination would have already taken place for an infinite number of moments in the past.

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Germann
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Re: Re:

Post by Germann » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:41 am

Sherab wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:32 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:49 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:05 pm

I was answering this part of your post: "If, however, we consider liberation (Nibbana) a simple cessation, any subject, regardless of his moral path, reaches Nibbana by death."

As regards free choice, I don't think there is such a thing. There is choice, but there is no free choice. Choice makes sense only in relation to sentient beings but not the Buddha.
If there is no free choice, then all events are either random or deterministic. If there are random events, the entire Path to Nibbana should be already “printed” for an endless past (the title post). If there are no random events, then all events are totally deterministic. Deterministic algorithm, whose steps have already been carried out in the infinite past. If Nibbana is possible, all steps towards it must be realized for an infinite past. If Nibbana is impossible, the algorithm infinitely repeats the events of samsara, there is no way out of samsara.
Like I mentioned before, Nibbana being unconditioned, can never be a member of the infinite set of casually-chained events.
Nibbana can be anything. Theravadin Nibbana is most similar to Nirguna Brahman - a transcendental entity, an absolute reality that remains out of experience, after all phenomena cease.

What is important is not what Nibbana is, but that its manifestation takes place under certain conditions. Before the manifestation of Nibbana, there is a known sequence of combinations of dhammas.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:45 am

Pondera wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:00 am
Cyclical existence does not have an infinite past. During expansion, space-time arises. During contraction, space-time ceases.
The chain of causes and effects is not limited only to the rupe, to the emergence of the material world.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:06 am

Germann wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:45 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:00 am
Cyclical existence does not have an infinite past. During expansion, space-time arises. During contraction, space-time ceases.
The chain of causes and effects is not limited only to the rupe, to the emergence of the material world.

That is wrong view (that the material world and rupa exists).

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Pondera
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Pondera » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:22 am

Germann wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:34 am
Sherab wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:29 pm
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:52 pm
Nibbana, being outside this set of parameters, hasn't happened for all beings.
That was my primary argument against Germann's proposition. Basically, my argument was that Nibbana is unconditioned. Being unconditioned, it can never be a member of the infinite set of all casually chained events.
Nibbana has no kammic reasons, but its manifestation has conditions. The realization of Nibbana is the well-known sequence of dhammas. This sequence of dhammas, if possible, has a non-zero probability.

Do we have a deterministic algorithm for reaching Nibbana in an infinite number of steps, do we allow random combinations of dhammas - if we deny a subject to freely choose combinations - any possible combination would have already taken place for an infinite number of moments in the past.
I could quote you the kammic reasons for Nibbāna starting with “restraint.” But why don’t we start with the N8FP? Right speech, right action and right livelihood? Is this not a kammic condition?

And if Nibbāna is deterministic what is the purpose of right effort? What is the purpose of “energy” in the 7 factors of enlightenment?
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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Pondera
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Re: Re:

Post by Pondera » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:26 am

Germann wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:41 am
Sherab wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:32 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:49 pm

If there is no free choice, then all events are either random or deterministic. If there are random events, the entire Path to Nibbana should be already “printed” for an endless past (the title post). If there are no random events, then all events are totally deterministic. Deterministic algorithm, whose steps have already been carried out in the infinite past. If Nibbana is possible, all steps towards it must be realized for an infinite past. If Nibbana is impossible, the algorithm infinitely repeats the events of samsara, there is no way out of samsara.
Like I mentioned before, Nibbana being unconditioned, can never be a member of the infinite set of casually-chained events.
Nibbana can be anything. Theravadin Nibbana is most similar to Nirguna Brahman - a transcendental entity, an absolute reality that remains out of experience, after all phenomena cease.

What is important is not what Nibbana is, but that its manifestation takes place under certain conditions. Before the manifestation of Nibbana, there is a known sequence of combinations of dhammas.
That combination is not deterministic. The Buddha has emphasized the importance of effort, constant mindfulness and concentration. These all require the volition of the one seeking realization.

The idea that Nibbāna is reached without effort is an idea put forth by Gosala - a contemporary of the Buddha and a former student of Mahavira. I’ve already compared your fatalistic argument to the same kind he made 2500 years ago. In this thread.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:27 am

Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:47 pm
The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.
:rofl:

Do you think your mathematical convolutions are more effective? You talk like someone who knows what they are saying, but the things you say show you have no experience with the practice.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Dan74-MkII
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Re:

Post by Dan74-MkII » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:58 pm

Germann wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:17 am
Dan74-MkII wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:11 pm
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:06 pm


That doesn’t follow.
No, it doesn't. Nor does the maths, incidentally.
Explain how the deterministic recombination algorithm of a finite number of elements in an infinite number of steps does not give a combination of elements that is possible (the probability of which is not equal to zero). Absurd. Post a thesis on a math forum and see what will answer you.

An infinite number of steps of such an algorithm is a countable set. For an infinite set of moments, every step should have already happened if the algorithm was already running. The endless repetition of the same combinations means that a combination that is not one of them is impossible.
This is what you sought to disprove in the your OP:
in the beginningless Buddhist past (the chain of conditioned dhammas does not have a first link) all possible events would have happened.
Given the finitely many sentient creatures in the world generating dependently originating dhammas, turning the clock back and running it infinitely long into tge beginningless past, there is no reason to suppose the magic combination of dhammas would be reached, any more than to believe that in the past there was a man called Germann who started a thread on yhis topic on a Dhamma forum. - the conditions for that only ripened now. Going forward it's the same - no need. Which doesn't mean it's impossible (hopefully!). But not certain. We can repeat the same mistakes ad infinitum. It's not called Samsara for nothing. :)

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Germann
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Re: Re:

Post by Germann » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:22 pm

Pondera wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:26 am


That combination is not deterministic. The Buddha has emphasized the importance of effort, constant mindfulness and concentration. These all require the volition of the one seeking realization.
The Theravada School is discussed here, not the Buddha. If satta, the subject of free choice, is totally denied, then all events are random or predetermined. About randomness on the scale of the infinite past, the title post. If all events are completely deterministic, then for an infinite number of steps in the deterministic algorithm of combinations of elements any possible combination is also realized. Nibbana should already be achieved. The path to Nibbana should have been fully formed.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:26 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:27 am
Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:47 pm
The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.
:rofl:

Do you think your mathematical convolutions are more effective? You talk like someone who knows what they are saying, but the things you say show you have no experience with the practice.
In Mahayana, there is no total denial of a living being, a person, etc. It denies self-existence, not the subject of free choice. Therefore, there is no mathematical deadlock.

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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:30 pm

Pondera wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:22 am

And if Nibbāna is deterministic what is the purpose of right effort? What is the purpose of “energy” in the 7 factors of enlightenment?
I agree. The total denial of the existence of satta - as in the Theravada school - makes everything meaningless. But with this you can argue long... The mathematical contradictions are clear and obvious - both under the assumption of complete determinism and assumption of random events with the non-existence of satta.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:31 pm

Where does Theravada totally deny a living being or personality?

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Germann
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Avijjamàna

Post by Germann » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:33 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:31 pm
Where does Theravada totally deny a living being or personality?
The Path of Purification p. 233-235
...
Bhikkhu Ñánamoli:
...
It then gives six kinds of paññatti “according to the commentarial method but not
in the texts”:

(1) Concept of the existent (vijjamána-paññatti), which is the conceptualizing of (making known) a dhamma that is existent, actual, become, in the true and ultimate sense (e.g. aggregates, etc.).

(2) Concept of the non-existent, which is, for example, the conceptualizing of “female,” “male,” “persons,” etc., which are non-existent by that standard and are only established by means of current speech in the world; similarly “such impossibilities as concepts of a fifth truth or the other sectarians’ Atom, Primordial Essence, World Soul, and the like.”
...
(6) Concept of the non-existent based on the non-existent, e.g. “banker’s son,” both being non-existent.

Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science
by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon

p. 362-363
Six kinds of Sadda-pannatti

1 Vijjamàna-pannatti (real concept)
When a name is given to something which exists in reality, then that name is called ‘vijjamàna-pannatti’. All the names of the ultimate realities (paramatthas) belong to this class; eg., Råpa, citta, cetasika, vedanà, sannà, vitakka.

2 Avijjamàna-pannatti (unreal concept)
When a name is designated to something which does not exist in reality, then that name is called ‘avijjamàna-pannatti’. All the names of things which are not ultimate realities belong to this class; eg., Man, dog, house, school, hill, cave.
...
6 Avijjamànena-avijjamàna-pannatti (unreal and unreal concept) It is a sadda-pannatti which makes known a compound name formed by combining and unreal concept with an unreal concept. eg., Ràja-putta (king’s son), movie-actress, company-director, head-master.

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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by cappuccino » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:08 pm

like I said, forget Abhidhamma

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