Theravada against mathematics

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Germann
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:24 pm

Sola Scriptura

Post by Germann » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:03 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:58 pm
Germann
https://www.academia.edu/5212434/The_Ea ... e_in_India

The first texts in the literary Pali (the language that is known from the Pali Canon) appeared after the life of Nagarjuna.
Alternative opinions are refuted by the lack of epigraphy.

Accordingly, the whole Pali philosophy arose later than the philosophy of Nagarjuna.
Nagarjuna is closer in time to the record of Agamas and Suttas.

The suttas themselves are usually dated before the Mahayana sutras. Nagarjuna refers to the suttas himself.
In the Mahayana there are Agamas and Abhidharmakosha containing the same teachings. And since there is no Sola Scriptura principle, proper understanding of the Doctrine is more important than specific books.

User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 5412
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:07 pm

Germann
In the Mahayana there are Agamas and Abhidharmakosha containing the same teachings.

Yes, the Agamas being the chinese version of the pali suttas. Still, most historians agree that the Mahayna sutras came later.

User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 5412
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Sola Scriptura

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:08 pm

Germann

And since there is no Sola Scriptura principle, proper understanding of the Doctrine is more important than specific books.
True, but I prefer to get as close to the original source as possible.

User avatar
Germann
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:24 pm

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:11 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:07 pm
Germann
In the Mahayana there are Agamas and Abhidharmakosha containing the same teachings.

Yes, the Agamas being the chinese version of the pali suttas. Still, most historians agree that the Mahayna sutras came later.
The Mahayana sutras correctly represent the ideas of the early texts (if Buddha could not be mistaken), so that Mahayana did not come to mathematical contradictions. The Buddha’s teaching (if Buddha possessed perfect wisdom) cannot contradict mathematics.

User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 5412
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:17 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:11 pm
clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:07 pm
Germann
In the Mahayana there are Agamas and Abhidharmakosha containing the same teachings.

Yes, the Agamas being the chinese version of the pali suttas. Still, most historians agree that the Mahayna sutras came later.
The Mahayana sutras correctly represent the ideas of the early texts (if Buddha could not be mistaken), so that Mahayana did not come to mathematical contradictions. The Buddha’s teaching (if Buddha possessed perfect wisdom) cannot contradict mathematics.

So they are later additions then :smile:

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: The countable set of all possible lives

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:21 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:24 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:22 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:36 am

In ancient India, the loser dispute became the pupil of the winner. Whoever this winner is.

You will not do anything with the mathematical fact that the countable set of all possible sequences of combinations of dhammas (the countable set of all possible lives) fit in an infinite set of moments of the past. It does not matter if there are random events or there are no random events.

http://mymathforum.com/number-theory/34 ... ments.html

A countable set is the "smallest" among infinite sets.
Well, then its a pity we aren’t in ancient India, and that you haven’t won anything. A pity for you, that is.
It seems to you.
Mathematically, I have everything correctly, and I want as many mathematicians as possible to participate in the discussion.
Then you might be better off on a mathematical forum, since you're making a mathematical point. This topic only coincidentally related to Theravada.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

User avatar
Germann
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:24 pm

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:47 pm

The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.

User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 5412
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:06 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:47 pm
The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.
That doesn’t follow.

User avatar
Dan74-MkII
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:22 am

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Dan74-MkII » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:11 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:06 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:47 pm
The Pali Abhidhamma is precisely how the Sutta were interpreted in Theravada school before they became acquainted with the Tibetan and Far Eastern Mahayana. The Pali Abhidhamma is exactly that which was mastered in bhavana. If the Pali Abhidhamma is wrong, then the whole school is wrong, and its meditative practices (not the accumulation of merit by offerings, etc.) could not be effective.
That doesn’t follow.
No, it doesn't. Nor does the maths, incidentally.

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Sherab » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:29 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:52 pm
Nibbana, being outside this set of parameters, hasn't happened for all beings.
That was my primary argument against Germann's proposition. Basically, my argument was that Nibbana is unconditioned. Being unconditioned, it can never be a member of the infinite set of all casually chained events.

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re:

Post by Sherab » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:32 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:49 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:05 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:21 am

If we attribute the free choice to a separate, conditioned dhamma, making it a subject, then regardless of the moral choice, the fate of all the subjects is the same — the termination. There is no kammic reward for dhammas.
I was answering this part of your post: "If, however, we consider liberation (Nibbana) a simple cessation, any subject, regardless of his moral path, reaches Nibbana by death."

As regards free choice, I don't think there is such a thing. There is choice, but there is no free choice. Choice makes sense only in relation to sentient beings but not the Buddha.
If there is no free choice, then all events are either random or deterministic. If there are random events, the entire Path to Nibbana should be already “printed” for an endless past (the title post). If there are no random events, then all events are totally deterministic. Deterministic algorithm, whose steps have already been carried out in the infinite past. If Nibbana is possible, all steps towards it must be realized for an infinite past. If Nibbana is impossible, the algorithm infinitely repeats the events of samsara, there is no way out of samsara.
Like I mentioned before, Nibbana being unconditioned, can never be a member of the infinite set of casually-chained events.

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re:

Post by Sherab » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:38 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:49 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:05 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:21 am

If we attribute the free choice to a separate, conditioned dhamma, making it a subject, then regardless of the moral choice, the fate of all the subjects is the same — the termination. There is no kammic reward for dhammas.
I was answering this part of your post: "If, however, we consider liberation (Nibbana) a simple cessation, any subject, regardless of his moral path, reaches Nibbana by death."

As regards free choice, I don't think there is such a thing. There is choice, but there is no free choice. Choice makes sense only in relation to sentient beings but not the Buddha.
If there is no free choice, then all events are either random or deterministic. If there are random events, the entire Path to Nibbana should be already “printed” for an endless past (the title post). If there are no random events, then all events are totally deterministic. Deterministic algorithm, whose steps have already been carried out in the infinite past. If Nibbana is possible, all steps towards it must be realized for an infinite past. If Nibbana is impossible, the algorithm infinitely repeats the events of samsara, there is no way out of samsara.
I hold that the choices of a sentient being are always subjected to causes and conditioned. That choice only makes sense because sentient beings are not omniscient. As a Buddha is omniscient, he does not need to make choices. His acts will be spontaneous.

As for Nibbana, it being unconditioned can never be a member of the infinite set of casually-chained events.

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Pondera » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:00 am

Cyclical existence does not have an infinite past. During expansion, space-time arises. During contraction, space-time ceases. During contraction, “most” beings are born in a certain heaven. Implying that within the scope of an infinite number of beings - the actual mechanism of cyclical existence places beings in a heaven (during the contraction of the cosmos). After expansion, they’re free to pursue whatever desire they have for the next period of expansion. Depending on what kind of kamma they cultivate; they may arrive at Buddhahood over the course of countless eons. But kamma is generated and exhausted - so there isn’t an infinite amount of kamma generated to attain Buddhahood here either. All of your math ignores the cosmology of the Buddha. There is no “infinite past”. There are cycles of space-time-matter expansion and contraction + beings who inhabit various realms depending on their kamma (kamma which arises and ceases also).
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Pondera » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:24 am

In addition - the 31 planes of existence have the immaterial sphere - the fine material sphere - the sensual sphere - and the sphere of deprivation. Beings wander from sphere to sphere according to their kamma.

Even the Buddha admitted that he had travelled to almost all of these spheres. However - and I believe it is the “Pure Abodes” he refers to when saying that if he had appeared there, he would never have taken human form later and become a Buddha.

The entire Soteriological frame work of good and bad kamma, the 31 planes of existence, the limited paths one can take in limited life times and the outcomes of those paths, etc. - all of this negates your theoretical mathematics. The path to Nibbana depends on hearing the dhamma. Hearing the dhamma depends on there being a Buddha. There being a Buddha means the right cultivation of the right kamma. The fact that it is possible but rare excludes all sentient beings from following that path. Some are in Hell and can’t practice. Some are in heaven and can’t practice. Some are human but don’t encounter the dhamma or a Buddha. Theoretically, it may be possible that all beings may some day reach Nibbāna- but factually it is happening in spurts. The last one was here on earth 2500 years ago. That is the factual nature of the dhamma and Nibbana. But please, do go on with your theorization - I’m sure it pleases you a great deal.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Pondera » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:03 am

And on and on ...

There are an infinite number of paths leading to 31 planes of existence and 1 unconditioned element. And you take the one path leading to the unconditioned element, give it a non-zero probability - then go on to say all beings would have realized this non-zero probability.

I don’t think so. There are many other paths, many other spheres of being, and many other non-zero probabilities leading to those spheres or planes of existence.

The statistical distribution of beings in these each of these 31 planes of existence is proportional to the number of paths leading to said plane and the probability of any single being following said path.

The fact that we are not all enlightened speaks to the fact that there are an infinite number of paths to follow through Samsara.

The fact that “most” beings are born in the realm of Radiance at the end of the world cycle speaks to the fact that most beings follow the same path and that there is a particularity high probability of ending up there at the end of each cycle.

So, the fact that you arbitrarily ignore all of the other statistical probabilities of the infinite paths in Samsara - with a preference for the very rare incidence of the deathless element is kind of a naive assumption.

Okay. Maybe I’m done now. I hope so.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alīno, Bundokji, Google [Bot] and 212 guests