Theravada and patriotism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Is Theravada compatible with patriotism?

Yes
4
36%
No
6
55%
Yea and nay
1
9%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 11

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

I would also say that if those lands where Theravada is concentrated ever come under threat of invasion by an overtly hostile force we Buddhists in other lands should come to their aid, in order to preserve the Sangha.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Viachh
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Viachh »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:24 am
Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 am
binocular wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:57 am One has to take some care of the physical land one is attempting to practice in. If Buddhist lay people wouldn't protect the land, Buddhist monks would have no place to be.
Will lay people have the right to kill for the opportunity for the monks to practice?

Yes
Is it not a violation of the covenant of the Buddha not to kill?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:36 am
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:24 am
Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 am
Will lay people have the right to kill for the opportunity for the monks to practice?

Yes
Is it not a violation of the covenant of the Buddha not to kill?

Yes but it’s part of living in the world and isn’t necessarily black kamma. It can be mixed.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

We householders kill everyday. Pest control and the like ...
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Not that I’m comparing people or pest control to war of course. Just to clarify.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Viachh
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Viachh »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:39 am
Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:36 am
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:24 am


Yes
Is it not a violation of the covenant of the Buddha not to kill?

Yes but it’s part of living in the world and isn’t necessarily black kamma. It can be mixed.
Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:51 am
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:39 am
Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:36 am
Is it not a violation of the covenant of the Buddha not to kill?

Yes but it’s part of living in the world and isn’t necessarily black kamma. It can be mixed.
Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).
Some actions are grey:

“These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is black with black result; kamma that is white with white result; kamma that is black & white with black & white result; and kamma that is neither black nor white with neither black nor white result, leading to the ending of kamma.”
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Mr Man
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Mr Man »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:18 am
Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:51 am
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:39 am


Yes but it’s part of living in the world and isn’t necessarily black kamma. It can be mixed.
Killing is allowed for bodhisattvas in Mahayana, but there are no exceptions in Theravada (definitely not).
Some actions are grey:

“These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is black with black result; kamma that is white with white result; kamma that is black & white with black & white result; and kamma that is neither black nor white with neither black nor white result, leading to the ending of kamma.”
So killing humans can be “grey” kamma?
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by binocular »

Viachh wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 amWill lay people have the right to kill for the opportunity for the monks to practice?
I don't know about that. But many problems can be solved quite non-violently if addressed early on.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by DooDoot »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:18 am Some actions are grey:
Doesn't sound "grey" in the suttas:
And what, Puṇṇa, is dark-and-bright action with dark-and-bright result? Here someone generates a bodily formation that is both afflictive and unafflictive, a verbal formation that is both afflictive and unafflictive, a mental formation that is both afflictive and unafflictive. Having generated a bodily formation, a verbal formation, a mental formation that is both afflictive and unafflictive, he reappears in a world that is both afflictive and unafflictive. When he has reappeared in a world that is both afflictive and unafflictive, both afflictive and unafflictive contacts touch him. Being touched by both afflictive and unafflictive contacts, he feels both afflictive and unafflictive feelings, mingled pleasure and pain, as in the case of human beings and some gods and some beings in the lower worlds. Thus a being’s reappearance is due to a being: one reappears through the actions one has performed. When one has reappeared, contacts touch one. Thus I say beings are the heirs to their actions. This is called dark-and-bright action with dark-and-bright result.

https://suttacentral.net/mn57/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »


So killing humans can be “grey” kamma?
I would say so. Life can be complicated. It all depends on the intent. Is it grey or pure black kamma to fight back against the Reich during WW2 if you are a Jew or gay?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:39 am
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:18 am Some actions are grey:
Doesn't sound "grey" in the suttas:
And what, Puṇṇa, is dark-and-bright action with dark-and-bright result? Here someone generates a bodily formation that is both afflictive and unafflictive, a verbal formation that is both afflictive and unafflictive, a mental formation that is both afflictive and unafflictive. Having generated a bodily formation, a verbal formation, a mental formation that is both afflictive and unafflictive, he reappears in a world that is both afflictive and unafflictive. When he has reappeared in a world that is both afflictive and unafflictive, both afflictive and unafflictive contacts touch him. Being touched by both afflictive and unafflictive contacts, he feels both afflictive and unafflictive feelings, mingled pleasure and pain, as in the case of human beings and some gods and some beings in the lower worlds. Thus a being’s reappearance is due to a being: one reappears through the actions one has performed. When one has reappeared, contacts touch one. Thus I say beings are the heirs to their actions. This is called dark-and-bright action with dark-and-bright result.

https://suttacentral.net/mn57/en/bodhi

Sounds plenty grey to me
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by DooDoot »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:40 amSounds plenty grey to me
Its not "grey". Its says it has two results. One afflictive. One non-afflictive.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by DooDoot »

clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:39 amI would say so. Life can be complicated. It all depends on the intent. Is it grey or pure black kamma to fight back against the Reich during WW2 if you are a Jew or gay?
The Bhikkhu Bodhi view of Just War, which Thanissaro kindly demolished.
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:26 am To clarify, a battle or war should only be fought in self defence. To decline to engage in war is to potentially plunge humanity into a great darkness (Ghandi’s pacifist approach to Mussolini and Hitler). Still, war is never good kamma. It can only be mixed (just war) or black (imperialism etc).
It was strange that Bhikkhu Bodhi, a Jew, could only think of the Holocaust as grounds for a Just War. Easy for folks to accuse VBB of self-cherishing or prejudice/bias (agati).

As for gays, I doubt the Allies fought to save gays. Any history books say this?? :roll: But then. the Allies did fight so all of Eastern Europe could become Communist. :roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:42 am
clw_uk wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:40 amSounds plenty grey to me
Its not "grey". Its says it has two results. One afflictive. One non-afflictive.
Mixed together. Think of it like this. There is action which is pure poison, motivated purely by hate (pure black kamma). Then there is kamma motivated by both hate and compassion, which is poison (hate) mixed with its antidote (compassion), therefore being of a mixed nature. A pure poison can lead to a poisonous death and suffering whilst a solution of poison and antidote can lead to prolgoned suffering but not death. Likewise, mixed kamma can lead to suffering but it can be mediated by the antidote of compassion which was pregnant within the intentional act.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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