Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dhammanando
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:37 am But, unlike the Burmese called "Mahasi Sayadaw", it seems at least Ajahn Buddhadasa knew what the fetters (saṃyojana) were according to the Pali suttas.
As the sayādaw was a Dīgha-bhāṇaka from a very early age he would certainly have known the familiar list of ten from DN 33.

The list he actually gives is unfamiliar to me. It's almost like that of the Abhidhamma's Vibhaṅga except that the eighth fetter should be envy (issā) not vibhavarāga (a term that's not found anywhere in the Tipiṭaka or Atthakathās).
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 am the teaching isn't just emptiness

also, emptiness is not really a "teaching"
:goodpost:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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DooDoot
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:03 am As the sayādaw was a Dīgha-bhāṇaka from a very early age he would certainly have known the familiar list of ten from DN 33.
Thank you Venerable. DN 33 appears to be a mixed bag (unless the 7 fetters are a different teaching), again, giving the impression of non-Buddha vacha and why Bhikkhu Buddhadasa generally dismissed the DN. This said, two of the Sayadaw's "fetters" appear to not be in DN 33. This said, I did write a disclaimer, namely: "for the purpose of my avoiding false speech, possibly Mahasi Sayadaw explained the fetters correctly in other lecture". Please note: I am no so foolish & idiotic to assume the Sayadaw did not know the standard teaching of the "ten fetters". Kind regards. :)
Three fetters:
Tīṇi saṃyojanāni—

identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.
sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso.

Five lower fetters:
Pañca orambhāgiyāni saṃyojanāni—
identity view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and observances, sensual desire, and ill will.
sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso, kāmacchando, byāpādo. (7)

Five higher fetters:
Pañca uddhambhāgiyāni saṃyojanāni—

desire for rebirth in the realm of luminous form, desire for rebirth in the formless realm, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance.

rūparāgo, arūparāgo, māno, uddhaccaṃ, avijjā

Seven fetters:
Satta saṃyojanāni—

attraction, repulsion, views, doubt, conceit, desire to be reborn, and ignorance.

anunayasaṃyojanaṃ, paṭighasaṃyojanaṃ, diṭṭhisaṃyojanaṃ, vicikicchāsaṃyojanaṃ, mānasaṃyojanaṃ, bhavarāgasaṃyojanaṃ, avijjāsaṃyojanaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by DooDoot »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 amalso, emptiness is not really a "teaching"
What about Ani Sutta? :shrug:
Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:53 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 am also, emptiness is not really a "teaching"
:goodpost:
:strawman: :strawman: :focus:

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Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree by Improving My Pariyatti & Using the Pali Suttas for Discussion :thumbsup:
SDC wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:12 pm:focus:
hi Mod. Is it possible to change the title of this topic to: "Quibble on Buddha's teachings". Thanks. Or do you suggest I take the opposing position ("Mara's Advocate") and start to demonstrate how to discerningly quibble about Buddhadasa's teachings? :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Aloka
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by Aloka »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:53 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 am the teaching isn't just emptiness

also, emptiness is not really a "teaching"
:goodpost:


What about this article by Thanissaro Bhikku ? :

The Integrity of Emptiness

in which he highlights: "Emptiness as an Approach to Meditation", "Emptiness as an Attribute of the Senses and their Objects" "Emptiness as a State of Concentration", and "The Wisdom of Emptiness".

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... iness.html


:anjali:

.
Last edited by Aloka on Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.

Sounds like ... Connections to other paths #0027

Theme:
1. "I don’t know what to say about it, better to shut up!" .... thanks 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 am .

Sounds like ... Connections to other paths #0026

Theme:
"I don’t know what to say about it, better to shut up!" .... thanks 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻


Verbatim Excerpts from:
Heart-wood from the Bo Tree
by BUDDHADASA BHIKKHU
http://www.meditation2.net/htdocs/Books ... o_Tree.htm

To sum up - this one subject of emptiness covers all of the Buddhist Teachings, for the Buddha breathed with emptiness. Emptiness is the theoretical knowledge, it is the practice and it is the fruit of the practice. If one studies one must study emptiness; if one practises it must be for the fruit of emptiness, and if one receives the fruit it must be emptiness, so that finally one attains that thing that is supremely desirable. There is nothing beyond emptiness. When it is realized, all problems end. It is not above, it is not below, it is not anywhere-I don't know what to say about it, better to shut up! Suffice it to say that emptiness is the supreme happiness.
Those who know have been said, from proper perspectives, about "it" since the time of the Buddha.

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree



Theme:
2. Otherwise, it will lead to this kind of passage.


Verbatim Excerpts from:
Heart-wood from the Bo Tree
by BUDDHADASA BHIKKHU
http://www.meditation2.net/htdocs/Books ... o_Tree.htm


If we say that the mind has attained or realized emptiness it leads some people to understand that the mind is one thing and emptiness another. To say that the mind comes to know emptiness is still not particularly correct. Please understand that if the mind was not one and the same thing as emptiness, there would be no way for emptiness to be known. The mind in its natural state is emptiness, it is an alien foolishness that enters and obstructs the vision of emptiness. Consequently, as soon as foolishness departs, the mind and emptiness are one. The mind then knows itself. It doesn't have to go anywhere else knowing objects, it holds to the knowing of emptiness, knowing nothing other than the freedom from 'self' and 'belong to self'.

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by cappuccino »

Aloka wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:50 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:53 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:00 am the teaching isn't just emptiness

also, emptiness is not really a "teaching"
:goodpost:


What about this article by Thanissaro
emptiness by itself is not a teaching

in other words, there is a lot more to learn
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Aloka
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by Aloka »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:39 pm
in other words, there is a lot more to learn

Or alternatively, a lot more to let go of!


:hello:
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by cappuccino »

Aloka wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:36 pm
cappuccino wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:39 pm
in other words, there is a lot more to learn

Or alternatively, a lot more to let go of!
:woohoo:
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DooDoot
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:51 pm
If we say that the mind has attained or realized emptiness it leads some people to understand that the mind is one thing and emptiness another. To say that the mind comes to know emptiness is still not particularly correct. Please understand that if the mind was not one and the same thing as emptiness, there would be no way for emptiness to be known. The mind in its natural state is emptiness, it is an alien foolishness that enters and obstructs the vision of emptiness. Consequently, as soon as foolishness departs, the mind and emptiness are one. The mind then knows itself. It doesn't have to go anywhere else knowing objects, it holds to the knowing of emptiness, knowing nothing other than the freedom from 'self' and 'belong to self'.
Despite the 'verboseness' of the above, there appears really nothing to quibble about here.

:focus:

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Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.

Sounds like ... Connections to other paths #0028

Theme:
"The newborn infant has no kilesa". :lol:


Verbatim Excerpt from:
Defilements & The End of Defilements by Buddhadāsa Bhikkhu Interpreted into English by Santikaro Bhikkhu
http://www.bia.or.th/en/index.php/teach ... ments-2906

The newborn infant has no kilesa. There is no defilement in the newborn infant. And there is no knowledge in that infant. All there are is the instincts to know – that is all that’s present, the instincts to know. But once it’s born, then these instincts to know can develop one way or the other.

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:39 am🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree
:jumping: :rofl: :rolleye: :pig: :strawman: :jedi: :guns: :console: :alien: :clap: :zzz:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:39 amTheme:
"The newborn infant has no kilesa". :lol:
:strawman: :roll: :reading: :ugeek: :focus: :meditate: :focus: :meditate: :buddha1: The topic is not Quibble on Buddha's teachings. :focus:
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
kilesa
masculine (& n.)
affliction; distress; esp. that which afflicts, that which stains; an affliction, a defilement; a defiling passion, esp. sexual desire, lust (see also klesa)

https://suttacentral.net/define/kilesa
Buddha MN 64 wrote:“Mālunkyāputta, to whom do you remember my having taught these five lower fetters (saṃyojanaṃ) in that way? Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with the simile of the infant? For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’ so how could identity view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency (ānusayo) to identity view lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘teachings,’ so how could doubt about the teachings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘rules,’ so how could adherence to rules and observances arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to adhere to rules and observances lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘sensual pleasures,’ so how could sensual desire arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency (ānusayo) to sensual lust lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘beings,’ so how could ill will towards beings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will lies within him. Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with this simile of the infant?

“Who on earth do you remember being taught the five lower fetters in that way? Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant? For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘teachings’, so how could doubt about the teachings possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘precepts’, so how could misapprehension of precepts and observances possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to misapprehension of precepts and observances still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sensual pleasures’, so how could desire for sensual pleasures possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual desire still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sentient beings’, so how could ill will for sentient beings possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will still lies within them. Wouldn’t :lol: the wanderers who follow other paths :lol: fault you using the simile of the infant? :lol:

https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi


:rofl: :woohoo: :rofl: :woohoo: :rofl: :woohoo:

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Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree By Not Making Uneducated Comments
66. Fools of little wit are enemies unto themselves as they move about doing evil deeds, the fruits of which are bitter.

67. Ill done is that action of doing which one repents later, and the fruit of which one, weeping, reaps with tears. :cry:

Dhammapada
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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.

Sounds like ... Connections to other paths #0029

Theme:
Oh my God!, umm, i mean ... Buddha! :lol:


Verbatim Excerpt from: Dhammic Socialism (Buddhadāsa Bhikkhu)
http://www.bia.or.th/en/index.php/teach ... -socialism


Image


🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:35 am Sounds like ... Connections to other paths #0029

Theme:
Oh my God!, umm, i mean ... Buddha! :lol:
While I think the above does not warrant a quibble, it seems the Buddha-Dhamma was seriously misrepresented in the previous quibble about new born babies & kilesa. Can you tell me what Theravada Buddhists do when they misrepresent the Dhamma & Buddha in a very serious way? Thank you :)

Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Quibble on Buddhadasa's teachings

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:35 am .

Sounds like ... Connections to other paths #0029

Theme:
Oh my God!, umm, i mean ... Buddha! :lol:


Verbatim Excerpt from: Dhammic Socialism (Buddhadāsa Bhikkhu)
http://www.bia.or.th/en/index.php/teach ... -socialism


Image


🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree


Sounds like ... Connections to other paths #0030

Theme:
Oh my God!, umm, i mean ... Buddha! #2 :lol:


Verbatim Excerpt from: Dhammic Socialism (Buddhadāsa Bhikkhu)
http://www.bia.or.th/en/index.php/teach ... -socialism

Image


🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Protecting genuine Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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