Theravada against mathematics

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DNS
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by DNS » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:36 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:35 am
DNS wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:26 pm
Not yet P = 1 but perhaps around 0.7.
Therefore, contact with an extraterrestrial civilization did not necessarily have to happen. The probability of its existence is less than 1, and the observation period is not unlimited.
Exactly, which just confirms my point. World systems (solar systems with planets) are vastly far apart, thousands of light years apart. As beings perish on one planet from a planet extinction activity, it is impossible for all of them to have attained nibbana in one instance, one moment, at the same time. According to Buddhist cosmology, they are reborn in another world system, thus samsara continues. Planets, solar systems arise, perish, re-evolve, the cycle continues ad infinitum. You have confirmed my point. :thanks:

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Sherab
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Sherab » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:48 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:27 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm

No dhamma combination ends with the manifestation of Nibbana? Yes no combination of conditioned dhammas can end with the manisfestation of Nibbana. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
This means that the complete passage of the Path, from beginning to end, does not lead to Nibbana. Such a Path is not a Path.
Exactly. The path is not a path but not the way you understand it.

What is conditioned cannot become unconditioned. When the conditioned ceases, there is the unconditioned because the unconditioned was there all along. That is why there is no path but yet Nibbana can be 'arrived' at.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Sherab » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:30 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm

Is there no Ways to Nibbana?[/color] Yes there is no ways within the dependently arisen regime to Nibbana, because Nibbana is the cessation of all that are dependently arisen, and that have to include any dependently arisen ways within the dependently arisen regime.
When the Path is passed, from beginning to end, Nibbana manifests. This does not mean that Nibbana is conditioned kammically. This dhamma has no kammic reasons, but there are conditions for its manifestation. After certain combinations of the dhammas that make up the passage of the Path, Nibbana manifests.
When the all conditioned cease, the unconditioned 'manifests' because it was there all along. But these words can be misleading. The best analogy I can come up with is the sublimation of dry ice from a solid state to a gaseous state at room temperature. In other words, the 'manifestation' of Nibbana is something like a phase transition.

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Sherab
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Sherab » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:02 pm

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:37 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm
Can you go all the way from beginning to end, but not reach Nibbana? You cannot make something conditioned become unconditioned since what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive. When you are in the dependently arisen regime, there is no beginning and there is no end. The only end is the ending of the dependently arisen regime as a whole where it all ceases for you.
While still alive, "Arahant" is touching the body of Nibbana in the state of nirodha. As for the disintegration of the khandhas, this disintegration is the result of the complete passage of the Path — the result of a series of successive combinations of dhammas. Such a "novel" should have been written in the infinity of the past.
The 'novel' cannot include Nibbana which is unconditioned and not part of the conditioned regime. The 'novel' being something conditioned, would cease for you with the cessation of the conditioned regime because the 'novel' is within the conditioned regime.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by netlava » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:10 pm

The cosmos being infinite has not been declared by the Buddha.
Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta wrote:"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.
See also Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:16 am


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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:20 am

Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:48 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:27 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm

No dhamma combination ends with the manifestation of Nibbana? Yes no combination of conditioned dhammas can end with the manisfestation of Nibbana. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
This means that the complete passage of the Path, from beginning to end, does not lead to Nibbana. Such a Path is not a Path.
Exactly. The path is not a path but not the way you understand it.

What is conditioned cannot become unconditioned. When the conditioned ceases, there is the unconditioned because the unconditioned was there all along. That is why there is no path but yet Nibbana can be 'arrived' at.
This does not change anything. Nibbana should have already manifested itself, since in the infinity of the past, the entire Path, from beginning to end, must have already passed.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:27 am

Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:30 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm

Is there no Ways to Nibbana?[/color] Yes there is no ways within the dependently arisen regime to Nibbana, because Nibbana is the cessation of all that are dependently arisen, and that have to include any dependently arisen ways within the dependently arisen regime.
When the Path is passed, from beginning to end, Nibbana manifests. This does not mean that Nibbana is conditioned kammically. This dhamma has no kammic reasons, but there are conditions for its manifestation. After certain combinations of the dhammas that make up the passage of the Path, Nibbana manifests.
When the all conditioned cease, the unconditioned 'manifests' because it was there all along. But these words can be misleading. The best analogy I can come up with is the sublimation of dry ice from a solid state to a gaseous state at room temperature. In other words, the 'manifestation' of Nibbana is something like a phase transition.
This does not change anything. Nibbana should have already manifested.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:31 am

netlava wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:10 pm
The cosmos being infinite has not been declared by the Buddha.
Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta wrote:"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.
See also Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
There are only two options: either there is no beginning, or there is a beginning at the flow of dhammas. If the flow of dhammas has a beginning, then the first non-permanent dhammas in the flow arise without kammic reasons. The emergence of non-permanent dhammas without causes is impossible. The first moment of the flow of dhammas is impossible. So there is no beginning for the flow of dhammas. There are no other solutions.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:33 am

Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:02 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:37 pm
Sherab wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:13 pm
Can you go all the way from beginning to end, but not reach Nibbana? You cannot make something conditioned become unconditioned since what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive. When you are in the dependently arisen regime, there is no beginning and there is no end. The only end is the ending of the dependently arisen regime as a whole where it all ceases for you.
While still alive, "Arahant" is touching the body of Nibbana in the state of nirodha. As for the disintegration of the khandhas, this disintegration is the result of the complete passage of the Path — the result of a series of successive combinations of dhammas. Such a "novel" should have been written in the infinity of the past.
The 'novel' cannot include Nibbana which is unconditioned and not part of the conditioned regime. The 'novel' being something conditioned, would cease for you with the cessation of the conditioned regime because the 'novel' is within the conditioned regime.
The novel leads to the realization of Nibbana. Where the novel is, there is Nibbana. Where is the path from beginning to end, there is Nibbana. It should be already achieved in the past.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:41 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:36 pm
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:35 am
DNS wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:26 pm
Not yet P = 1 but perhaps around 0.7.
Therefore, contact with an extraterrestrial civilization did not necessarily have to happen. The probability of its existence is less than 1, and the observation period is not unlimited.
Exactly, which just confirms my point. World systems (solar systems with planets) are vastly far apart, thousands of light years apart. As beings perish on one planet from a planet extinction activity, it is impossible for all of them to have attained nibbana in one instance, one moment, at the same time. According to Buddhist cosmology, they are reborn in another world system, thus samsara continues. Planets, solar systems arise, perish, re-evolve, the cycle continues ad infinitum. You have confirmed my point. :thanks:
There is no contradiction in the fact that we have not yet met with extraterrestrial civilizations. The observation period is not infinite. The probability of their existence is less than 1 (there is a non-zero probability that humanity is lonely in the Universe). The probability of contact is less than 1 (there is a non-zero probability that, for some reason, the contact may not take place).

As for infinity, the situation is different. In the infinite past, all possible events should have happened. Since the past for each flow of dhammas is infinite, has no beginning (non-permanent dhammas do not arise for no reason, and the first dhammas in the flow would arise for no reason) - The path from beginning to end should have been passed in the past.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:05 am

Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:27 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 pm

You obviously misunderstand what is meant by dhamma. Concept of finite set of dhammas does not apply. Nor does an infinite set of dhammas.

If I were to give a simile, take a close look at a lamp flame. It is wrong to call it a infinite series of flames. Also it is wrong to call it a single flame. For it is never the same flame.

If you try to fit all the water in a kettle inside a teacup it just going to create a big mess. You cannot fit reality inside logic and reason. Logic and reason is only an small subset of the vastness of reality.
The Abhidhamma describes a finite number of varieties of phenomena. Phenomena of previously known varieties are involved in all processes. It's like a typewriter key. Each dhamma from the list is like one of the buttons.
"Each dhamma from the list is like one of the buttons" ????

Do you think the dhammas described in abhidhamma are like elements in chemistry, where certain combination of them will produce a compound?

Abhidhamma does not talk about elemental imperishable dhammas. Each dhamma is dependently originated. That is the only analysis that is possible with dhammas.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:12 am

Germann wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:31 am
netlava wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:10 pm
The cosmos being infinite has not been declared by the Buddha.
Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta wrote:"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.
See also Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
There are only two options: either there is no beginning, or there is a beginning at the flow of dhammas. If the flow of dhammas has a beginning, then the first non-permanent dhammas in the flow arise without kammic reasons. The emergence of non-permanent dhammas without causes is impossible. The first moment of the flow of dhammas is impossible. So there is no beginning for the flow of dhammas. There are no other solutions.
I think you have missed the whole point of this teaching. This teaching is a method to go beyond all views and conceptions. For whatever views there are in the world are impermanent, dependently originated. If you cling to what is impermanent, suffering will be the result.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:05 am
Germann wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:27 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:53 pm

You obviously misunderstand what is meant by dhamma. Concept of finite set of dhammas does not apply. Nor does an infinite set of dhammas.

If I were to give a simile, take a close look at a lamp flame. It is wrong to call it a infinite series of flames. Also it is wrong to call it a single flame. For it is never the same flame.

If you try to fit all the water in a kettle inside a teacup it just going to create a big mess. You cannot fit reality inside logic and reason. Logic and reason is only an small subset of the vastness of reality.
The Abhidhamma describes a finite number of varieties of phenomena. Phenomena of previously known varieties are involved in all processes. It's like a typewriter key. Each dhamma from the list is like one of the buttons.
"Each dhamma from the list is like one of the buttons" ????

Do you think the dhammas described in abhidhamma are like elements in chemistry, where certain combination of them will produce a compound?

Abhidhamma does not talk about elemental imperishable dhammas. Each dhamma is dependently originated. That is the only analysis that is possible with dhammas.
It does not matter. It is important that we have two sets with a finite number of elements, where each element is a possible event (dhamma arises, a letter is printed). This makes the theorem applicable to the Abhidhamma.

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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:41 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:12 am
Germann wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:31 am
netlava wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:10 pm
The cosmos being infinite has not been declared by the Buddha.



See also Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
There are only two options: either there is no beginning, or there is a beginning at the flow of dhammas. If the flow of dhammas has a beginning, then the first non-permanent dhammas in the flow arise without kammic reasons. The emergence of non-permanent dhammas without causes is impossible. The first moment of the flow of dhammas is impossible. So there is no beginning for the flow of dhammas. There are no other solutions.
I think you have missed the whole point of this teaching. This teaching is a method to go beyond all views and conceptions. For whatever views there are in the world are impermanent, dependently originated. If you cling to what is impermanent, suffering will be the result.
Buddha, possessing perfect wisdom, could not teach contradictions. Buddha could not teach that 2 + 2 = 5, etc.
Right views (without controversy) are needed for proper practice.

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