Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

[thang]

According to the Paticcasamuppada (SN.12.2 Vibhanga Sutta):
"Sankhara paccaya Vinnanam. Vinnana paccaya Namarupam."
Here Nama is described as ''vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara'.
Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ? If so how can Sankhara paccaya Vinnana while vice-versa Vinnana paccaya 'a thing including Sankhara' happen?

[Srilankaputra]

Sankhara is the accumulation of kamma through body speech and mind. Analogy would be, keep adding oil to the lamp so it never goes out.

From the vibhanga;

1.2. Definition of (Volitional) Processes

Herein, what is ‘with ignorance as condition there are (volitional) processes?’

(There is) a meritorious (volitional) process, a demeritorious (volitional) process, an impertubable (volitional) process, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.

Herein, what is a meritorious (volitional) process?

(There are) wholesome intentions in the sense-world sphere, in the form-world sphere, consisting of generosity, consisting of morality, consisting of meditation, this is said to be a meritorious (volitional) process.

Herein, what is a demeritorious (volitional) process?

(There are) unwholesome intentions in the sense-world sphere, this is said to be a demeritorious (volitional) process.

Herein, what is an impertubable (volitional) process?

(There are) wholesome intentions in the formless-world sphere, this is said to be an impertubable (volitional) process.

Herein, what is a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body?

(There is) an intention expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body. (There is) an intention expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech. (There is) an intention expressed by way of the mind, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti

Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ? If so how can Sankhara paccaya Vinnana while vice-versa Vinnana paccaya 'a thing including Sankhara' happen?

Same way the past flame of a lamp conditioned the present flame and the present flame conditions the future flame.

[SarathW]

Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ?

You have to learn Abhidhamma to properly understand this.
Cetana is a type of Sankhara.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html

[Volo]

According to the Paticcasamuppada (SN.12.2 Vibhanga Sutta):
"Sankhara paccaya Vinnanam. Vinnana paccaya Namarupam."
Here Nama is described as ''vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara'.
Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ? If so how can Sankhara paccaya Vinnana while vice-versa Vinnana paccaya 'a thing including Sankhara' happen?

According to Abhidhamma this is divided between two lifes. In previous life a person due to ignorance has wholesome and unwholesome cetana (sankhara link), i.e. accumulates kamma. This would cause rebirth linking consciousness (viññana link) and the rest of new nāma-rūpa to appear. So, basically cetana from sankhara link is from the previous life, cetana from nāma-rūpa link is from this.

[DooDoot]

Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ?

No. Why would it be the same? Obviously, they are different.

If so how can Sankhara paccaya Vinnana while vice-versa Vinnana paccaya 'a thing including Sankhara' happen?

It can happen. For example, if the ignorant thought (sankhara) arises to get angry at someone; the intention (cetana) can arise to follow the impulse of that angry sankhara. Or, alternately, the intention (cetana) can arise to abandon that angry sankhara. I suggest to read MN 19 until you understand MN 19 from experience.

From the vibhanga

The word "sankhara" in Abhidhamma is singular and the word "sankhara" in SN 12.2 is plural. Therefore, it seems Abhidhamma cannot be used to explain SN 12.2.

[sentinel]

Hello Thang ,



If you follows per the definition of this sutta ,
You are going nowhere , I hope you don't mind .


Nama = vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara.
Rupa = 4 great elements

Therefore , namarupa = vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara + four great elements .


Please take a closer look ,

(1). Consciousness conditions namarupa ,
You have to ask ,
what type of consciousness here refer to ?

(2). Namarupa conditions consciousness ,
again you have to ask ,
consciousness here refer to what ?


If consciousness at (1) is the 6 classes of consciousness , how can it
conditions the (vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara + four great elements) ?
This does not make sense !

If consciousness at (2) is 6 classes of consciousness , how then , the namarupa ie
(vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara + four great elements) conditions the six classes of consciousness ?
This does not make sense !

Please consider further ,
I hope you could see the error , illogical and irrational in this ?

Therefore , you cannot take this sutta definition for granted !



Ps.
Sankhara at second link (after ignorance) , is different from the cetana of mental object .
If you take sankhara at 2nd link as (e.g. angry) thought , then you could not solved the dependent origination puzzles .

The dependent origination links is sort of abbreviated codes , therefore , one should look at it as similar to a kind of short hand writing .

[thang]

Thank you all for your time. I'll try to understand.