"#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by salayatananirodha » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:03 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:16 am
Idappaccayata wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:12 am
Not sure what this has to do with theravada. Or even Buddhism, as far as most of us here are concerned. Maybe dharma wheel engaged is a better place for such gossip?
Pretty disturbing that you would view such a pertinent issue as "gossip".
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm
Similar to the "Me, Too!" casting-couch, it happens to ladies without moral values. Why would a lady attend a Buddhist institution and choose to have sex with a teacher? It takes two to tango.

It does indeed; I'm more concerned for the students of both of the dancers.

In Theravada we got our own bad apples, too, especially in pandaka-rich Thailand.

so, 'pandaka-rich' is the quality that is a corrupting factor of Thai buddhism?
not gun and drug trafficking, or child sex abuse, but lgbt people?
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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retrofuturist
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:52 pm

Greetings,
salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:03 pm
so, 'pandaka-rich' is the quality that is a corrupting factor of Thai buddhism?
not gun and drug trafficking, or child sex abuse, but lgbt people?
If you want to discuss such matters, they'd be better discussed in a topic such as "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals.

This is not that topic.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Dan74-MkII
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Dan74-MkII » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:58 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:52 pm
Greetings,
salayatananirodha wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:03 pm
so, 'pandaka-rich' is the quality that is a corrupting factor of Thai buddhism?
not gun and drug trafficking, or child sex abuse, but lgbt people?
If you want to discuss such matters, they'd be better discussed in a topic such as "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals.

This is not that topic.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
How is this off-topic, Paul, if salayatananirodha is picking up on what the OP has stated? I mean if I start a topic, can I make assertions that people cannot question me on, if they are only tangentally relevant? Seems kinda bizarre.

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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:04 pm

Greetings Dan74-MkII,
Dan74-MkII wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:58 pm
How is this off-topic, Paul, if salayatananirodha is picking up on what the OP has stated? I mean if I start a topic, can I make assertions that people cannot question me on, if they are only tangentally relevant? Seems kinda bizarre.
Because as per the OP, this topic is about sexual abuse and misconduct perpetrated by certain Buddhist monastics and teachers, and the dubious "relationships" they have with certain lay followers. (Hence the topic being situated in the Relationships section of Dhamma Life)

The topic is not "gun and drug trafficking, or child sex abuse" etc.

I gave a link to where discussion of such offenses might be on topic.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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AgarikaJ
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by AgarikaJ » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:34 am

I at least tried to make my answer about Theravada Buddhism.

As for the last two pages we are discussing about anything but, would it not be preferable to have this topic in 'Connections to other paths'?

I am known on here to enjoy a discussion about things quite far from Theravada, but this thread is a hodge-podge that will make no sense at all to anybody coming at 'Buddhism' without some good foundation on the differences of Theravada, Japanese Zen, modern Tibetan Mahasiddism and its supposedly happy offspring of 'Modern Western Buddhism' (I disagree strongly that this is actually the case).

To try to have a coherent discussion on this is impossible if this is not handled in the separation it deserves.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:03 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:34 am
I at least tried to make my answer about Theravada Buddhism.
This is more about families, imo, because whether a sheila becomes a "Tantric Courtesan" or a "Dubai Port-o-Potty" (the depravity is of about the same level) these are some people's daughters, and thats a shame for the parents, either way, don't you think?

My personal opinion is that feminism is to blame.

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AgarikaJ
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by AgarikaJ » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:48 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:03 pm
AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:34 am
I at least tried to make my answer about Theravada Buddhism.
This is more about families, imo, because whether a sheila becomes a "Tantric Courtesan" or a "Dubai Port-o-Potty" (the depravity is of about the same level) these are some people's daughters, and thats a shame for the parents, either way, don't you think?
Is it? Of course, if your soul mate would fall for a cult or do something self-destructive, you would try to dissuade her and talk her out of it. Because through discourse we gain the right insight and we are able to ameliorate behaviour, ours and that of those around us.

At least I think this is what you thought when you wrote 'sheila'. Scrolling through the other definitions of your slang term, I also come up with 'a female', but then surely you would have worded it that way (a Theravada Buddhist trying to hold the Precepts would avoid using derogatory descriptors for other humans, as they in turn simply fuel their own delusions and strengthen mental fetters).

- https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sheila

So I am confused; why would be a person admired for their clarity of mind be "depraved? You make no sense.

I have not been able to find out what a Dubai Port-o-potty would be, besides some rap music; I would bring forward that consuming and listening to such music and its often disturbing texts will as much be a hindrance to your development than labelling people around you in unflattering terms.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:57 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:48 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:03 pm
AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:34 am
I at least tried to make my answer about Theravada Buddhism.
This is more about families, imo, because whether a sheila becomes a "Tantric Courtesan" or a "Dubai Port-o-Potty" (the depravity is of about the same level) these are some people's daughters, and thats a shame for the parents, either way, don't you think?
Is it? Of course, if your soul mate would fall for a cult or do something self-destructive, you would try to dissuade her and talk her out of it. Because through discourse we gain the right insight and we are able to ameliorate behaviour, ours and that of those around us.

At least I think this is what you thought when you wrote 'sheila'. Scrolling through the other definitions of your slang term, I also come up with 'a female', but then surely you would have worded it that way (a Theravada Buddhist trying to hold the Precepts would avoid using derogatory descriptors for other humans, as they in turn simply fuel their own delusions and strengthen mental fetters).

- https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sheila

So I am confused; why would be a person admired for their clarity of mind be "depraved? You make no sense.

I have not been able to find out what a Dubai Port-o-potty would be, besides some rap music; I would bring forward that consuming and listening to such music and its often disturbing texts will as much be a hindrance to your development than labelling people around you in unflattering terms.
Calm down with the emotions, your criticisms of me hurt me less than a fly drawing blood.

I could care less what you think about me.

Regarding a Dubai Port-o-potty its basically a feminist tantric courtesan without the wizard costume. Anyone could google this and find out what it is....
A tantric-courtesan is a prostitute, pure and simple. If you truly cared about these people, you wouldn't encourage their stupidity but would mock it as the moronic idea that it is, in order to bring the person to reason. Or...do you have a dog in this fight?
I know at least one zen-wizard-pajama-owner is trying to get this thread removed despite not offering rational criticism, but blood is gushing forth from his mouth (as is said in Pali).

I don't agree with Mussolini that "many enemies bring much honor" but I am indeed happy that such people are unhappy with me, and I would check myself if people who donned pajamas thought of me in a positive light.

Now stick to the topic, please.

:focus:

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DooDoot
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:10 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:57 pm
Now stick to the topic, please.
Australia's #1 Catholic just got busted (as predicted for a while now).


Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:03 pm
My personal opinion is that feminism is to blame.
Buddhism is about seeing causes & effects. In seeing the smaller contributors (such as feminism), we may fail to see the primary & larger causes. By believing the smaller contributor is the primary cause, we focus on something we believe might be possible to eradicate. But if the primary cause is seen, we may lose our bravado. :|
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AgarikaJ
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by AgarikaJ » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:19 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:57 pm
AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:48 pm
Because through discourse we gain the right insight and we are able to ameliorate behaviour, ours and that of those around us.
...
a Theravada Buddhist trying to hold the Precepts would avoid using derogatory descriptors for other humans, as they in turn simply fuel their own delusions and strengthen mental fetters
Calm down with the emotions, your criticisms of me hurt me less than a fly drawing blood.

I could care less what you think about me.

....

you wouldn't encourage their stupidity but would mock it as the moronic idea that it is, in order to bring the person to reason
I am calm (and I was and still am on topic, if it is -- as defined by you just above -- about the anguish parents would feel if their children act in a detrimental manner to themselves).

Actually I do not know you and your struggles and successes on the path are yours alone. If keeping the precepts -- maybe the most basic concept there is -- is beyond you, again this is not truly a matter of worry for me beyond feeling empathy for your struggle.

I believe it should be for you however, especially as you show already the start of another down-spiralling trend where you interpret any friendly advice (based in the Dhamma) as an aggressive, emotional attack on you. I would recommend that you yourself take a step back, read what was written and reflect why you would come to this off conclusion.
In general, if I might say, your posts lately have shown a tone which puts you once more outside the proper way of discourse ("mocking" others, anybody correct me if I am wrong, would not be counted as such by the Buddha, under any circumstances!).

Therefore, I am simply acting on my own advice, by discoursing with you based on the Dhamma I try to evolve your insight into the damage loose and condescending language -- which leads to negative thought patterns and disturbance in the mind -- does to your own practice. At least the Buddha thought that it would negatively influence, maybe even preclude any chance of success for you to go forward.

Even though my words might count nothing to you, maybe his do.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:32 am

AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:19 am


Actually I do not know you and your struggles and successes on the path are yours alone. If keeping the precepts -- maybe the most basic concept there is -- is beyond you, again this is not truly a matter of worry for me beyond feeling empathy for your struggle.
Likewise, my dear!

Self-respect is implicit in all of the precepts.

Subtle insults, snarky remarks and overall irrational emotive talk says everything about the individual speaking it and nothing about anything else. Its really transparent, invoking the name of the Buddha will not help the hypocritical nonsense.

If you feel like contributing to the actual thread regarding your experiences in tantra we'd love to here it, if not, I fail to see further value-add here....were you involved in these practices? Were you a tantric-consort to an elderly, vajra-weilding Tibetan gentleman?

For non-Theravadins there is also https://dharmapaths.com/ fyi.
AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:19 am
I try to evolve your insight
Ya, its really not working out, no offense. For that I have actual teachers, both Asian and European. Maybe you should put an end to this condescension and focus on your own path, just sayin.... as one American philosopher once said "we may practice deception, but not self-deception."

:focus:

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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Zom » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:08 pm

Because as per the OP, this topic is about sexual abuse and misconduct perpetrated by certain Buddhist monastics and teachers, and the dubious "relationships" they have with certain lay followers.
Well, I know personally one thai "monk" (who posits himself as "an abbot" and "a teacher") who can be a star of this topic ) While I haven't seen (maybe just yet) disreputable videos or photos, reports over the years are so many and from so different people, that I have no doubts ) So, this happens in Theravada too.

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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by AgarikaJ » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:27 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:32 am
If you feel like contributing to the actual thread regarding your experiences in tantra we'd love to here it, if not, I fail to see further value-add here....were you involved in these practices? Were you a tantric-consort to an elderly, vajra-weilding Tibetan gentleman?
I have little knowledge and actually zero interest in Tibetan Vajrayana and its Western offspring -- maybe a good reason for me to neither write about it nor have too deep an opinion on it?

This, of course, seems not to stop you at all.

It is more than obvious, that you know laughingly little of what you talk about, even though you bristle with conviction; this is actually the sign of a fanatic, instead of somebody who has explicated and thought hard about something before internalizing the useful and discarding the not useful (this is what happens during Dhamma and all other study: critical exegesis).
This is starting with the obvious impossibility that I could be personally involved in a tantric coupling with another man (as the philosophy has from its beginnings been based on complementary yab/yum or yin/yang, male and female energies; see my other topics on early Vajrayana and esoteric Theravada in Maritime Southeast Asia... a hint: both geographically and philosophically, the distance is great).

Of course, on the chance that you still would wish to engage constructively with this thread (started by yourself, was it not?), try reading a differentiated, maybe even (social) sciences-grounded view on the matter, like Gayley, Holly - Revisiting the “Secret Consort” (gsang yum) in Tibetan Buddhism.

Such texts are easy to find and frankly looking for them on Google is still much preferable to your researching of toxic rap slang.
This article revisits the question, first introduced by feminist scholars in the mid-1990s, about whether sexual practices within Buddhist tantra (heterosexually conceived) are empowering or exploitative to women.
The purpose here is to complicate this question, given the different geographic settings and cultural contexts in which consort relationships have been embedded—from eastern Tibet to North America—and to nuance our understanding of the potential and pitfalls of sexuality in tantric contexts.
To do so, I query the dynamics of secrecy and sexuality in tantric practice, examining twentieth century examples of female practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism who have participated in such relationships and thereby highlighting the localized ways that the “secret consort” (gsang yum) has been invoked as a social role.
This issue is especially relevant today in light of the global #MeToo movement and recent disclosures of sexual improprieties and alleged abuse involving Tibetan teachers at the head of Buddhist communities in Europe and North America. For this reason, to conclude, I discuss shifting perspectives on sexuality as Buddhist tantra has spread beyond Asia and draw attention to current voices calling for greater transparency and community accountability.
...

p.15:
Already by 1993, when a group of twenty-two western Buddhist teachers from various traditions (Tibetan, Zen, Theravāda) gathered to meet with His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala, the topic of misconduct among Buddhist teachers was a significant issue. Under the rubric of “Teachers and Ethics,”questions were raised about the issue of secrecy if students witnessed or experienced misconduct by Buddhist teachers. The Dalai Lama responded by suggesting that it is “worthwhile to publicize these things”in order to make “a clear distinction [between] what is true Buddhist teachings [and] this individual's behavior;”otherwise it is "very harmful to the Buddhadharma.” Yet he admitted that the samaya vow complicates how to handle this since, according to its commitments, one should never disparage the teacher.
I think so, it is again (!) important to pronounce the difference between Theravada as being part of "Buddhism" and the breaking of moral values by practitioners of other "Buddhist" schools.
Your constant intermingling of them confers the idea that either Theravada Sila is a general yardstick for all "Buddhist" morals, or that all "Buddhists" are likely to in the same way perpetrate sexual harassment due to their "Buddhist" beliefs which include 'consorts'. Both ideas would be fallacies and by confounding Theravada with Vajrayana you confuse any discussion possible.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:36 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:08 pm
Because as per the OP, this topic is about sexual abuse and misconduct perpetrated by certain Buddhist monastics and teachers, and the dubious "relationships" they have with certain lay followers.
Well, I know personally one thai "monk" (who posits himself as "an abbot" and "a teacher") who can be a star of this topic ) While I haven't seen (maybe just yet) disreputable videos or photos, reports over the years are so many and from so different people, that I have no doubts ) So, this happens in Theravada too.
Zom, great post, there is a section of the various Thai Nikayas in the linked "Broken Buddha" article, there is also the Al Jazeera video:

Of course, most of this should be taken with a grain of salt, given the source.

The important thing, as always, imo, is to investigate the teacher and make a judgement only after a long time by comparing him and his comportment to the Buddhadhamma; a great summary is included in the abhidhammasamatha sangaha.

I find this sutta particularly relevent https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN3_11.html

As you can see, there exist those who are indeed not content with these issues being brought to light and will resort to all kinds of slander in order to silence those who bring it up.

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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by SDC » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:28 pm

Moderator Note: far too much meta discussion in this thread. Talk about it via PM or report posts with your concerns.

:focus:

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