"#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:08 am

More news from the Zenmaster dudes, whose fingers are not pointing to the moon....
Case in point: Eido Shimano Roshi. The founder and leader of New York’s Zen Studies Society—among the largest Western Buddhist communities in America, with prominent CEOs and celebrities among its members—Shimano carried on clandestine affairs with over a dozen women in his community over the course of thirty years, according to Oppenheimer’s provocatively titled Zen Predator of the Upper East Side. The book is a devastating indictment of Shimano Roshi, filled with hard evidence of the affairs and the cover-ups, the testimony of several victims, and occasionally lurid details. It even includes Shimano’s own confession to having sex with some students, though, he says, “far fewer” than his accusers allege.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-shock ... erican-zen

American Zen is such a joke; virtually anyone can become a zen master with the right pajama-outfit and the vaguest, most irrational statements.

The new-age circuit is a multi-billion dollar industry.

Led that get through everyone's head.

There are real predators out there, along with their beta-orbiters who trade silence for pajamas.

The article finishes with a great sentence that pajama-cravers need to hear:
In the end, meditation is not about exotic sages, black robes, and following in the footsteps of someone else. It’s about finding your own footsteps, in your own Western clothes, and according to your own experiences and insights.
If you are a monk, you can don the saffron robes; if you are an upasaka, you can wear a white t-shirt to ceremonies; otherwise dress modestly like any other normal person; zen-pajamas don't mean crud.

Also - there is absolutely no reason that a white man needs a Japanese or Korean or Tibetan pet name - it makes you look ridiculous.

If your name is Bob Smith your spiritual level is exactly the same as if you change your name to some exotic Asian-sounding name.

Show yourself some self-respect!

"Losing yourself
" isn't about losing all of your dignity in exchange for pajama-prestige, and non-duality doesn't mean you need to ingest fluids from dirty old men in wizard outfits to get your own-with-the-universe hit.

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:34 am

Knowing what I know now its hard to NOT see the bikkhuni ordination thingy through the same lens as before.

Xuecheng has been preying on bhikkhunis (ordained female monastics) for years, specifically that he has had sex with multiple nuns by persuading them they could be “purified” through physical contact.
https://u.osu.edu/mclc/2018/08/04/buddh ... legations/

A lot of these patriarchs just want a tree from which to pluck wide-bovine-eyed co-eds right next to them instead of having to wait for retreat-time.

Why are the virtue-signallers so hellbent on getting this, even to the point of creating huge amount of stress and discord in the sangha?

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DooDoot
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:03 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:23 am
When most people think of Bangkok they think of ladies who pee standing up and guys who wear bras and panties and then post pics of it on the internet.
I imagine only ignorance thinks the above. By "ignorance", I refer to not having ever been to Bangkok. Having personally been to Bangkok so many times, I never saw the above (since I never went to the US-made sex-trade districts) plus Bangkok is an awesome city. Bangkok was amazing. Great social plus family vibe; with feeling of ease, freedom & friendliness. :thumbsup:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:23 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:03 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:23 am
When most people think of Bangkok they think of ladies who pee standing up and guys who wear bras and panties and then post pics of it on the internet.
I imagine only ignorance thinks the above. By "ignorance", I refer to not having ever been to Bangkok. Having personally been to Bangkok so many times, I never saw the above (since I never went to the US-made sex-trade districts) plus Bangkok is an awesome city. Bangkok was amazing. Great social plus family vibe; with feeling of ease, freedom & friendliness. :thumbsup:
I have absolutely no doubt that you fit right in there.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 pm

Aloka wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:15 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:15 pm
Who has been sentenced to prison so far?
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:29 pm
Since when is consenting sex between adults a criminal offence?
U.S. authorities looking into misconduct allegations at Shambhala retreat

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.4955867

:reading:


.
I'm glad they're investigating. I'm a big fan of the maxim "listen and investigate". But I'm not a fan of "listen and believe". That's why I'm asking who has been convicted? Because otherwise this sounds very much like gossip. And a very unwholesome kind of gossip at that.

So, who has been convicted so far?
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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DooDoot
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:27 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:23 pm
I have absolutely no doubt that you fit right in there.
Yes. Minds without prejudice seem to fit in well in Bangkok. :heart:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 pm
So, who has been convicted so far?
On what charge? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:34 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 pm
Aloka wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:15 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:15 pm
Who has been sentenced to prison so far?
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:29 pm
Since when is consenting sex between adults a criminal offence?
U.S. authorities looking into misconduct allegations at Shambhala retreat

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.4955867

:reading:


.
I'm glad they're investigating. I'm a big fan of the maxim "listen and investigate". But I'm not a fan of "listen and believe". That's why I'm asking who has been convicted? Because otherwise this sounds very much like gossip. And a very unwholesome kind of gossip at that.

So, who has been convicted so far?

Admission of guilt
is somehow of less value than a "conviction?" :shrug:

A conviction for what?

Groupie-fondling isn't against the law unless there is physical coersion.

If criminal conviction in a non-Buddhist court of law is your criteria of what is permissible conversation than no wonder we are in such a deep mess.

I'd advise you to look up this so-called shambalah organization to see what a history it has.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:39 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:27 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:23 pm
I have absolutely no doubt that you fit right in there.
Yes. Minds without prejudice seem to fit in well in Bangkok. :heart:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:26 pm
So, who has been convicted so far?
On what charge? :shrug:
That is one of my points.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:46 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:34 pm

Admission of guilt is somehow of less value than a "conviction?" :shrug:
Admission of guilt is excellent and usually conclusive. So what exactly has been admitted and by whom?


I ask because in other unrelated sexual misconduct accusations, there was a famous guy who has "admitted" to what he did. But when you read what he admitted versus what he was accused of in the press, it is quite a distance. Especially given how he has been treated like a rapist by that press, when he clearly is not even close to being a rapist.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:50 pm

Here is a guy who probably never broke any law other than drug-smuggling, which he admitted to when the statute of limitations had run out:

Image

Image

Image

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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:52 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:46 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:34 pm

Admission of guilt is somehow of less value than a "conviction?" :shrug:
Admission of guilt is excellent and usually conclusive. So what exactly has been admitted and by whom?


I ask because in other unrelated sexual misconduct accusations, there was a famous guy who has "admitted" to what he did. But when you read what he admitted versus what he was accused of in the press, it is quite a distance. Especially given how he has been treated like a rapist by that press, when he clearly is not even close to being a rapist.
This entire thread isn't about rape. Who mentioned anything about rape?

The only rape is of the innocent people who have their wallets fleeced by the wizards and their thots.

All of so-called "western buddhism" needs a mop up - stop orientalizing; no more exotic silk costumes and goofy sounding names; stick to the tipitika, seek out those well-established in the vinaya and quite trying to mold Buddhism into your own image of how you think things should be. Get off the retired-baby-boomer cum enlightened-master-because-you-have-bright-silken-pajamas racket.

Wizards and thots can play with their tantric-kink in san francisco all day long but quite pretending that the Buddha has something to do with your vajra-play.

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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:02 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:52 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:46 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:34 pm

Admission of guilt is somehow of less value than a "conviction?" :shrug:
Admission of guilt is excellent and usually conclusive. So what exactly has been admitted and by whom?


I ask because in other unrelated sexual misconduct accusations, there was a famous guy who has "admitted" to what he did. But when you read what he admitted versus what he was accused of in the press, it is quite a distance. Especially given how he has been treated like a rapist by that press, when he clearly is not even close to being a rapist.
This entire thread isn't about rape. Who mentioned anything about rape?

The only rape is of the innocent people who have their wallets fleeced by the wizards and their thots.

All of so-called "western buddhism" needs a mop up - stop orientalizing; no more exotic silk costumes and goofy sounding names; stick to the tipitika, seek out those well-established in the vinaya and quite trying to mold Buddhism into your own image of how you think things should be. Get off the retired-baby-boomer cum enlightened-master-because-you-have-bright-silken-pajamas racket.

Wizards and thots can play with their tantric-kink in san francisco all day long but quite pretending that the Buddha has something to do with your vajra-play.

#MeToo was about violent rape and coerced sex. It turned into public accusations of just about anything to do with sex, be they true or false, and regardless of context.

You've been complaining about creepy betas, and I understand your point about some portion of western buddhist men. But you're also buying into the culture of public denunciation. The way to get out of that culture is to stick to the evidence. It's to ask who was convicted, and due to what. Or who has admitted, and exactly what.

In particular, when talking about noncriminal sexual misconduct, the context is often absent. I don't know whether the teachers were being manipulative, or if the students were flirting with the teachers, or both. And given the nuance of sexual interaction, it's quite easy to simplify the situation to vilify either the teacher or the student.

In other words, too much gossip around very serious subjects. Especially given that we're talking about teachers who might be part of the Noble Sangha and innocent.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:15 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:02 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:52 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:46 pm


Admission of guilt is excellent and usually conclusive. So what exactly has been admitted and by whom?


I ask because in other unrelated sexual misconduct accusations, there was a famous guy who has "admitted" to what he did. But when you read what he admitted versus what he was accused of in the press, it is quite a distance. Especially given how he has been treated like a rapist by that press, when he clearly is not even close to being a rapist.
This entire thread isn't about rape. Who mentioned anything about rape?

The only rape is of the innocent people who have their wallets fleeced by the wizards and their thots.

All of so-called "western buddhism" needs a mop up - stop orientalizing; no more exotic silk costumes and goofy sounding names; stick to the tipitika, seek out those well-established in the vinaya and quite trying to mold Buddhism into your own image of how you think things should be. Get off the retired-baby-boomer cum enlightened-master-because-you-have-bright-silken-pajamas racket.

Wizards and thots can play with their tantric-kink in san francisco all day long but quite pretending that the Buddha has something to do with your vajra-play.

#MeToo was about violent rape and coerced sex. It turned into public accusations of just about anything to do with sex, be they true or false, and regardless of context.

You've been complaining about creepy betas, and I understand your point about some portion of western buddhist men. But you're also buying into the culture of public denunciation. The way to get out of that culture is to stick to the evidence. It's to ask who was convicted, and due to what. Or who has admitted, and exactly what.

In particular, when talking about noncriminal sexual misconduct, the context is often absent. I don't know whether the teachers were being manipulative, or if the students were flirting with the teachers, or both. And given the nuance of sexual interaction, it's quite easy to simplify the situation to vilify either the teacher or the student.

In other words, too much gossip around very serious subjects. Especially given that we're talking about teachers who might be part of the Noble Sangha and innocent.
I think with the publicity-stunt of "me too" there were initial accusations of "rape" but it turned out to be just good-old-fashioned casting couch; the way of Hollywood since it began. Hollywood is a giant brothel, but should Buddhism be?

IMO, the vinaya should be followed and when people speak in the name of the Buddha and then disrespect the precepts, they deserve to be exposed.

I have no issue with "alpha males" who get all the ladies, and I'm not complaining that they get plenty of sex, I'm saying that the Buddha's name should not have anything to do with these charlatans.

The Buddha was often seduced by women before his going forth, but from the age of 29 to 80 he denied women access to him on a sexual level.

If there are crimes involved, then absolutely, all evidence should be forensic, but trading sex for enlightenment-bragging-rights is not considered criminal under our secular law.

Clearly these tantra dudes, the ones I mentioned being well-documented party-animals, are not part of the Ariya Sangha because if they were, they would mend their ways and take refuge in the Triple Gem instead of taking refuge in Hindu sex manuals.

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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:58 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:15 pm

I think with the publicity-stunt of "me too" there were initial accusations of "rape" but it turned out to be just good-old-fashioned casting couch; the way of Hollywood since it began. Hollywood is a giant brothel, but should Buddhism be?

IMO, the vinaya should be followed and when people speak in the name of the Buddha and then disrespect the precepts, they deserve to be exposed.

I have no issue with "alpha males" who get all the ladies, and I'm not complaining that they get plenty of sex, I'm saying that the Buddha's name should not have anything to do with these charlatans.

The Buddha was often seduced by women before his going forth, but from the age of 29 to 80 he denied women access to him on a sexual level.

If there are crimes involved, then absolutely, all evidence should be forensic, but trading sex for enlightenment-bragging-rights is not considered criminal under our secular law.

Clearly these tantra dudes, the ones I mentioned being well-documented party-animals, are not part of the Ariya Sangha because if they were, they would mend their ways and take refuge in the Triple Gem instead of taking refuge in Hindu sex manuals.
My point is that I don't know if they're charlatans. I don't know what happened without evidence, which means it is not advisable to judge people based only on allegations. People who might be innocent and part of the Noble Sangha.

If you want to discuss the ethics of lay buddhist teachers having sex with students, that is a different subject. A legitimate and pertinent subject. But this thread has this ethical issue interwoven with examples of alleged sexual misconduct.

I think I have made myself clear enough, so I'm bowing out, at least for now.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Manopubbangama
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Re: "#MeToo!" in Buddhism

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:12 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:58 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:15 pm

I think with the publicity-stunt of "me too" there were initial accusations of "rape" but it turned out to be just good-old-fashioned casting couch; the way of Hollywood since it began. Hollywood is a giant brothel, but should Buddhism be?

IMO, the vinaya should be followed and when people speak in the name of the Buddha and then disrespect the precepts, they deserve to be exposed.

I have no issue with "alpha males" who get all the ladies, and I'm not complaining that they get plenty of sex, I'm saying that the Buddha's name should not have anything to do with these charlatans.

The Buddha was often seduced by women before his going forth, but from the age of 29 to 80 he denied women access to him on a sexual level.

If there are crimes involved, then absolutely, all evidence should be forensic, but trading sex for enlightenment-bragging-rights is not considered criminal under our secular law.

Clearly these tantra dudes, the ones I mentioned being well-documented party-animals, are not part of the Ariya Sangha because if they were, they would mend their ways and take refuge in the Triple Gem instead of taking refuge in Hindu sex manuals.
My point is that I don't know if they're charlatans. I don't know what happened without evidence, which means it is not advisable to judge people based only on allegations. People who might be innocent and part of the Noble Sangha.

If you want to discuss the ethics of lay buddhist teachers having sex with students, that is a different subject. A legitimate and pertinent subject. But this thread has this ethical issue interwoven with examples of alleged sexual misconduct.

I think I have made myself clear enough, so I'm bowing out, at least for now.
If you don't trust that I did my homework than you may have to roll up your sleeves and check for yourself but I warn you, when you read about these shambala guys you may feel a bit of the nasty taste rub off on you.

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