The Elders did not create paradoxes

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:41 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Nirvana?
I prefer Sanskrit

zan
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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by zan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:03 am

Zom wrote:

From how I personally see it from the suttas, there are 2 nibbana elements, one is psychological nibbana (sa-upadisesa-nibbana) defined exactly as "destruction of kilesas", which is arahant's mind state; another is ontological nibbana, the cessation of the All, uncluding arahant's mind (anupadisesa nibbana). Now, arhattaphala samadhi is probably the arahant's state of mind in this or that jhanic attainment (most likely, in that special one, called signless samadhi which is also the same thing as "abiding in the emptiness" for buddhas and arahants (see MN 122). Nirodha samapatti is the same as a "test drive" for anupadisesa nibbana element (everything ceases; and arahant, or even anagami, can thus retrospectively know how technically this happens). 4th arupa attainment, which is neither perception nor non-perception is, according to Buddha, the best spiritual worldly attainment, the peak of samsara, the highest point of existence, the most sublime, and, obviously, it is just one step from nirodha, which is final nibbana. In there 5 khandhas almost cease to exist, but they are still there, because craving keeps their remains together. If one is able to remove that subtle craving, one attains nibbana immediately (the reason why Alara Kalama was the first whom Buddha wanted to teach).
I think this hits the nail on the head. Two types of nibbana. The one while alive is sa-upadisesa The other is anupadisesa. The latter is experienced only in review as it is impossible to literally experience a state that does not in any way involve consciousness. As to what the experience of the former is, only stream winners on up know. But it seems reasonable to assume that it is a kind of knowledge of anupadisesa, and of the cessation of suffering as opposed to a paradoxical conscious unconscious which of course is totally illogical.

Otherwise, the Visuddhimagga wouldn't put it thus (on why cessation of perception and feeling is attained):
Why do they attain it? Being wearied by the occurrence and dissolution
of formations, they attain it thinking, “Let us dwell in bliss by being without
consciousness here and now and reaching the cessation that is Nibbána."
If one could experience anupadisesa while conscious then the above Visuddhimagga quote would be totally illogical. But since that is not possible, an arahant or non returner who has, of course, already experienced path and fruition while conscious, and wants to "experience" anupadisesa will enter the cessation of perception and feeling and only after emerging be able to be conscious of what has occured.
Last edited by zan on Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:13 am

zan wrote:I think this hits the nail on the head.
this is a lot of speculation…

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:20 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:41 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Nirvana?
I prefer Sanskrit
Why?



https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comme ... t1_d5uozgg

Why does Theravada use Pali while Mahayana uses Sanskrit? Where did the differences come from?

http://factsanddetails.com/asian/cat64/ ... -5587.html

2) Language of dharma teaching: A) Theravada Buddhism: Tipitaka is strictly in Pali. Dharma teaching in Pali supplemented by local language. B) Mayahana Buddhism: Buddhist canon is translated into the local language (except for the 5 untranslatables), e.g. Tibetan, Chinese and Japanese. Original language of transmission is Sanskrit.



ps: I think this is important to clarify because according to OP, non-orthodox views are irrelevant here.

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𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗸𝗻𝗼𝘄 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀: :candle: --->

"the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
"It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
⬤ The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
⬤ No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:39 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Why does Theravada use Pali while Mahayana uses Sanskrit?
Sanskrit is a higher language.

Pali was chosen in order to make Buddhism more available.
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:24 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:41 am

Thanks for kind and deep explanations.
Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:16 pm

From how I personally see it from the suttas, there are 2 nibbana elements, one is psychological nibbana (sa-upadisesa-nibbana) defined exactly as "destruction of kilesas", which is arahant's mind state; another is ontological nibbana, the cessation of the All, uncluding arahant's mind (anupadisesa nibbana).
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:16 pm
Now, arhattaphala samadhi is probably the arahant's state of mind in this or that jhanic attainment (most likely, in that special one, called signless samadhi which is also the same thing as "abiding in the emptiness" for buddhas and arahants (see MN 122).
So, do you want to, "most likely" mean "arhattaphala samadhi" is ---> the same as "signless samadhi" which is also the same thing as "abiding in the emptiness"?

Or, do you want to mean signless samadhi-release or "abiding in the emptiness"-release. My head nearly exploded while trying to digest these terms.


Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:16 pm
4th arupa attainment, which is neither perception nor non-perception is, according to Buddha, the best spiritual worldly attainment, the peak of samsara, the highest point of existence, the most sublime, and, obviously, it is just one step from nirodha, which is final nibbana.
To the wordings:
(( it is just one step from nirodha ))
I want to rewrite it as: ----> it is just one step, "a little bit too far away", from nirodha. That's why the duo of Uddaka Rama, his son Uddaka Ramaputta and the whole clan belonged to them didn't attained nibbana.
Zom wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:16 pm
4th arupa attainment, which is neither perception nor non-perception is, according to Buddha, the best spiritual worldly attainment, the peak of samsara, the highest point of existence, the most sublime, and, obviously, it is just one step from nirodha, which is final nibbana. In there 5 khandhas almost cease to exist, but they are still there, because craving keeps their remains together. If one is able to remove that subtle craving, one attains nibbana immediately (the reason why Alara Kalama was the first whom Buddha wanted to teach).
I think, you want to mean Uddaka Ramaputta, the "second" one, who taught his father's technique to Buddha, and, later, after Buddha's departure from him, he himself attained 'dimension of neither perception nor non-perception'.

For, Alara Kalama, he got stuck in "dimension of nothingness", imo.

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𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗸𝗻𝗼𝘄 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀: :candle: --->

"the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
"It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
⬤ The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
⬤ No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:52 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:39 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Why does Theravada use Pali while Mahayana uses Sanskrit?
Sanskrit is a higher language.

Pali was chosen in order to make Buddhism more available.
No, I'm not asking about it.
I'm asking about why you prefer using the word "nivarna" in Classical Theravada forum?

"To be, or not to be, that is the question" ~ Hamlet :)

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𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗸𝗻𝗼𝘄 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀: :candle: --->

"the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
"It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
⬤ The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
⬤ No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:54 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: No, I'm not asking about it.
I'm asking about why you prefer using the word "Nirvana" in Classical Theravada forum?
I prefer Nirvana, aesthetically.

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by zan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:00 am

Further, this may be exactly what Venerable Sariputta is speaking about with his:
perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”
-AN 10.7
It might mean that one is percipient of nibbana exactly as some orthodox teachers explain: one moment conscious, then consciousness ceases, the next moment conscious again. Like a flickering flame. In the conscious moments one is percipient of nibbana and, perhaps as Zom suggested, they are in the emptiness meditation which is why they are removed from all other attainments and spheres. They attain fruit and path in this state and nibbana is understood and also experienced.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:02 am

zan wrote:It might mean that one is percipient of
this is a lot of speculation…

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by zan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:05 am

.
Last edited by zan on Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:09 am

nir·va·na
noun
a transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:10 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:54 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: No, I'm not asking about it.
I'm asking about why you prefer using the word "Nirvana" in Classical Theravada forum?
I prefer Nirvana, aesthetically.
imo, you are more attached to Nirvana, hopefully only aesthetically.

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
𝗬𝗼𝘂 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗸𝗻𝗼𝘄 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀: :candle: --->

"the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
"It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
⬤ The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
⬤ No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:20 am

words are paradoxical,

especially if spoken by a Buddhist

zan
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Re: The Elders did not create paradoxes

Post by zan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:44 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:20 am
...
Much metta to you :heart: Sorry I get frustrated sometimes. I just always expect to get only orthodox views in this sub forum and am irked when I inevitably read your decidedly counter-orthodox posts. I really need to just accept that this is going to be the case.

Some day, though, it will hit you, and you'll get it, and you'll realize not one word of all of your hundreds of posts on here has any meaning, because you'll be enlightened :). Then you'll stop all the constant, tireless arguing because you'll see there was no one to argue with and no one making arguments in the first place. Some day.

Hopefully I'll get there again soon too!

Until then, good luck my friend.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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