Are collective apologies valid?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Manopubbangama
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Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Manopubbangama » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:53 pm

Karmically, that is?


Danes say sorry for Viking raids on Ireland
· We are not proud of the massacres, says minister
· Apology marks arrival of replica longboat in Dublin


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/16/ireland

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Aloka
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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Aloka » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:13 pm

.

I think its really good that people should regret the acts of their ancestors and resolve not to do the same thing.

As far as kamma is concerned I recall that the Buddha said:

There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:anjali:

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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Manopubbangama » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:46 pm

Aloka wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:13 pm
.

I think its really good that people should regret the acts of their ancestors and resolve not to do the same thing.

As far as kamma is concerned I recall that the Buddha said:

There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:anjali:
So for example, in World War Two, the American soldiers took all of the Australian women during the duration of their stay, afterwards they took the flower of Australian womanhood with them back to the States.
The Americans....were able to show the girls a good time, and the Australians became very resentful about the fact that they'd lost control of their own city.
— Sergeant Bill Bentson
In mid-1942, a reporter walking along Queen Street counted 152 local women in company with 112 uniformed Americans, while only 31 women accompanied 60 Australian soldiers.
"They're overpaid, oversexed, and over here" was a common phrase used by Australians around this time and is still an anecdote recognised by some in modern generations.
Douglas MacArthur had already expressed a low opinion of Australian troops
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... d_services
Australian women realised that men didn't have to go off to the pub and drink and come home sloshed at six o'clock. The Americans were much more courtly, much more polite. They gave gifts, they stood up for women in trams and things.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/conten ... 362272.htm





From my understanding this resentment from Australian males has carried over into the present generations where the attitude of the female line remains, generally unchanged. I read that the males would nurse the offspring of these dalliances in resentment.

I wonder if we should apologize about this?

Karmically would it help?
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:24 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:53 pm
Are collective apologies valid?

Karmically, that is?
Kamma from our own point of view has solely to do with our own actions, not those of our ancestors (unless of course we were one of those ancestors! But this is something that scarcely anyone is in a position to know). And even with our actions, apologizing for those of them that were unskilful, though quite commendable, won't serve to wipe out their vipāka.

About thirteen years ago some sanctimonious nitwit proposed that the English city of Bristol should apologise for its historical role in the slave trade. This prompted moral philosopher Mary Warnock to post the following letter to the Guardian:
It is fatuous to apologise for the bad behaviour of our ancestors. In fact, it is impossible. An apology is a speaking act; it is a formal acknowledgement of a wrong done, and it is the acceptance of responsibility for that wrongful act. That's why we wish, for instance, that the Inland Revenue would apologise for making a mistake. If I were an inherited landlord, I would apologise for some wrong done to one of my father's tenants, and even seek to make reparation. I would be taking on familial responsibility. But one cannot so identify with an amorphous group such as 'our ancestors'. Men might as well apologise to women for depriving them for so long of the vote. The concept is not only meaningless, but totally lacking in historical perspective.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Manopubbangama » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:26 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:24 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:53 pm
Are collective apologies valid?

Karmically, that is?
Kamma from our own point of view has solely to do with our own actions, not those of our ancestors (unless of course we were one of those ancestors! But this is something that scarcely anyone is in a position to know). And even with our actions, apologizing for those of them that were unskilful, though quite commendable, won't serve to wipe out their vipāka.

About thirteen years ago some sanctimonious nitwit proposed that the English city of Bristol should apologise for its historical role in the slave trade. This prompted moral philosopher Mary Warnock to post the following letter to the Guardian:
It is fatuous to apologise for the bad behaviour of our ancestors. In fact, it is impossible. An apology is a speaking act; it is a formal acknowledgement of a wrong done, and it is the acceptance of responsibility for that wrongful act. That's why we wish, for instance, that the Inland Revenue would apologise for making a mistake. If I were an inherited landlord, I would apologise for some wrong done to one of my father's tenants, and even seek to make reparation. I would be taking on familial responsibility. But one cannot so identify with an amorphous group such as 'our ancestors'. Men might as well apologise to women for depriving them for so long of the vote. The concept is not only meaningless, but totally lacking in historical perspective.
Thank you, bhante :anjali:

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Nicolas
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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Nicolas » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:35 pm

"I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do."
Abhiṇhapaccavekkhitabbaṭhāna Sutta (AN 5.57)

"In recent decades something referred to as collective kamma or group kamma has been posited and discussed. According to this theory, groups of people or even a whole nation can supposedly suffer the results (as usual, positive collective kamma never seems to be discussed, it’s always negative kamma).
[...]
Nothing explicitly mentioning the idea of collective kamma is found in the Buddha’s teachings and there is no Pāḷi or Sanskrit terms for collective kamma in the traditional lexicons. The idea also seems to be absent from later Buddhist texts.
[...]
Just let it be known that nothing even remotely like this was taught by the Buddha."

— Bhante Dhammika, Collective Kamma and other Misunderstandings

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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Manopubbangama » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:38 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:35 pm
"I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do."
Abhiṇhapaccavekkhitabbaṭhāna Sutta (AN 5.57)

"In recent decades something referred to as collective kamma or group kamma has been posited and discussed. According to this theory, groups of people or even a whole nation can supposedly suffer the results (as usual, positive collective kamma never seems to be discussed, it’s always negative kamma).
[...]
Nothing explicitly mentioning the idea of collective kamma is found in the Buddha’s teachings and there is no Pāḷi or Sanskrit terms for collective kamma in the traditional lexicons. The idea also seems to be absent from later Buddhist texts.
[...]
Just let it be known that nothing even remotely like this was taught by the Buddha."

— Bhante Dhammika, Collective Kamma and other Misunderstandings
Thank you Nicolas. :namaste:

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Bundokji
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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Bundokji » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:43 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:24 pm
some sanctimonious nitwit
I am not a native English speaker, but i had the feeling that the above is very sophisticated way of showing disagreement with a certain position :rofl:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Manopubbangama » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:49 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:43 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:24 pm
some sanctimonious nitwit
I am not a native English speaker, but i had the feeling that the above is very sophisticated way of showing disagreement with a certain position :rofl:
Its a good way to describe a virtue-signaller, imo.

I still get messages from Australian males that America is too big for its own britches, and I imagine the terrifying, lip-quivering-inducing experiences of sexual jealousy are at the heart of this.
not to receive what one desires is suffering


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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:16 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:46 pm
I wonder if we should apologize about this?

Karmically would it help?
In the best case scenario, the above sounds irrelevant to me. The Vikings engaged in war, murder & pillaging. Where as the US soldiers, in the best case scenario, offered more virtue to the typical Australian scrubber (lady). While the ladies were certainly wooed with food & luxuries, such as chocolates & stockings, based in the Buddhist teachings, more virtue was exhibited by the Yanks; thus they are not the same as those violent Vikings.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:53 pm
Karmically, that is? Danes say sorry for Viking raids on Ireland

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/16/ireland
The above doesn't sound like a pertinent example. It appears it was merely a cultural-social event of a replica Norse longboat brought to Ireland. Obviously, all were celebrating history. For example, what occurred in this article would be akin to American or Australian First Nation Indigenous peoples bringing a British ship to the reservation or token allocated land. Obviously, First Nations would never do this thus its obvious what occurred in Ireland was mostly a social event.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:26 pm
Thank you, bhante
While I have no arguments against the learned Bhante's view on Buddhist kamma, I think it is important for the English city of Bristol to recognize it was probably economically enriched from the slave trade; which continues to have some economic impact today. The facts are most Westerners are in an economic advantaged position due the historic colonialism & imperialism their forefathers engaged in. Therefore, without recognising this, I am not sure it can simply be deemed as irrelevant.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:38 pm
Nothing explicitly mentioning the idea of collective kamma is found in the Buddha’s teachings and there is no Pāḷi or Sanskrit terms for collective kamma in the traditional lexicons. The idea also seems to be absent from later Buddhist texts. Just let it be known that nothing even remotely like this was taught by the Buddha." Bhante Dhammika
If there is no collective kamma, the Buddha would not have taught the Conditions of a Nation's Welfare to the Vajjis . Please note Bhante Dhammika is an Australian. The story is the Buddha's entire clan was annihilated due to some clan members playing a cruel humiliating joke on a neighbouring king. This was an example of collective kamma; where the lack of virtue of important members of the group resulted in the demise of the whole group. :shock:
Aloka wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:13 pm
I think its really good that people should regret the acts of their ancestors and resolve not to do the same thing.
I agree. While it is not your kamma, it is important to recognise the past, particularly if you remain an indirect beneficiary of that past. We have this issue in Australia; where most people believe the British "improved" Australia (rather than destroyed the society of the Indigenous People). To not understand the truth of these matters perpetuates gross delusions; such as the delusion of "American Exceptionalism".

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:33 am

I think it is important for the English city of Bristol to recognize .......
The city of bristol can not recognize anything.....neither does it observe or realize......it is a city which means that it is an administrative fabrication.....
chownah

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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:38 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:33 am
chownah
Take up your linguistic quibble with Venerable Dhammanando.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:16 am
Manopubbangama wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:46 pm
I wonder if we should apologize about this?

Karmically would it help?
In the best case scenario, the above sounds irrelevant to me. The Vikings engaged in war, murder & pillaging. Where as the US soldiers, in the best case scenario, offered more virtue to the typical Australian scrubber (lady). While the ladies were certainly wooed with food & luxuries, such as chocolates & stockings, based in the Buddhist teachings, more virtue was exhibited by the Yanks; thus they are not the same as those violent Vikings.
If you read into it, it wasn't low class scrubber ladies, it was the other way around; The Yanks took the most beautiful, fertile Australian women and left the Australian men with the leftovers they didn't want.

I think it would be almost a benefit to the Australian men had the Yanks taken the scrubber ladies off their hands, but alas, it was the opposite, and seemed to have to do with a hypergamous idea from the Australian women that the Yanks were a superior fighting force and all of the sensual goodies that come with this attribute.

Either way, I would apologize if any Australian asked me to; after all; they could be my long lost brother or cousin, giving the amount of chemistry that occured during this time.

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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:12 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:51 am
The Yanks took the most beautiful, fertile Australian women and left the Australian men with the leftovers they didn't want.
The population of Australia was 7,269,000 in 1944. Wiki says about 12,000 Australian women (0.16% of the population) married American soldiers by the end of the war. Say there were 3 million women and 600,000 women between the ages of 18 to 28. 2% of marriageable women married Yanks. However, what you have neglected to mention is after WW2, non-scrubber women flooded into Australia from Ireland, Italy, Greece, Lebanon :thumbsup: , Germany, Netherlands, etc,... oh... and also a lot more Poms (more English)...

:focus:

Since you are interested in Australia, listen to Australia's greatest PM (and also a fluffer PM) provide apologies ... :thumbsup:

must watch & listen short version of blunt dhamma truth


full version


good effort
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Are collective apologies valid?

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:32 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:12 am
28. 2% of marriageable women married Yanks.
MARRIED, is the key word. the percentage of those made love to by American men seems to be hovering around the percentage of 90% with the Australian men eventually settling down with and raising the offspring from such dalliances. This was the reason for riots; no man riots over unwanted washer women. They riot when the flower of womanhood is plucked right out from under their very noses.

It could be argued that the American soldier presence in Australia changed the blood line forever and that this fact is well ingrained in the pshyche of children and grandchildren of this fact, which is why American men are still viewed as being hypersexual and overly fecund in Australia.


This video, especially at 2:20 could give the impression that not much has changed, and that these beautiful, endearing women are still much addicted to gallantry. I won't mention any first hand knowledge of this as I am a gentleman, after, all, however, its indeed interesting.

Which brings us back to the theme of apologies....should Americans apologize for changing the signature of the DNA for aeternity on the Island nation of Australia, just as the moors did Sicily?

The interesting thing though, is the breaking down of artificial barriers such as "nationality" which is not a paramattha dhamma.

I mean, we could after all be.....brothers? :shrug:

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