anicca, impermanence or?

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auto
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anicca, impermanence or?

Post by auto » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:13 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who are committed to developing the meditation on love …
Santi, bhikkhave, bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṅghe mettābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā viharanti …
compassion … karuṇābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā viharanti …
rejoicing … muditābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā viharanti …
equanimity … upekkhābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā viharanti …
ugliness … asubhabhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā viharanti …
impermanence. aniccasaññābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā viharanti—
its like school lesson, scrap the unfitting word out, then what word it could be?

impermanence. What the impermanence mean, what is the context, is it a color?

auto
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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by auto » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:41 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who, with the ending of three fetters are stream-enterers, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.
Santi, bhikkhave, bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṃghe tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sotāpannā avinipātadhammā niyatā sambodhiparāyanā—

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vinipāta

vinipāta
vinipāta:[m.] a place of suffering a bad falling.

vinipāta:'world of suffering',is another name for the 4 woeful courses (duggati; s.gati) of existence,and for the 4 lower worlds (apāya,q.v.).

The Stream-Winner (Sotāpanna,q.v.) is no longer subject to rebirth in them (avinipāta-dhamma).
niyata
niyata:[adj.] sure; certain; constant.

Niyata,(adj.) [pp.of ni+yam] restrained,bound to,constrained to,sure (as to the future),fixed (in its consequences),certain,assured,necessary D.II,92 (sambodhiparāyanā),155; III,107; Sn.70 (=ariyamaggena niyāmappatta SnA 124,cp.Nd2 357); Dh.142 (=catumagga‹-› niyamena n.DhA.III,83); J.I,44 (bodhiyā); Pug.13,16,63; Kvu 609 sq.; Dhs.1028 sq.(micchatta° etc.; cp.Dhs.trsl.266,267),1414,1595; Vbh.17,24,63,319,324; Miln.193; Tikp 168 (°micchādiṭṭhi); DhA.III,170; PvA.211.Discussed in Pts.of Contr.(see Index).‹-› aniyata see separately.(Page 368)
micchādiṭṭhi

auto
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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by auto » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:55 pm

Ye ariyasaccāni vibhāvayanti,
Gambhīrapaññena sudesitāni;
Kiñcāpi te honti bhusaṃ pamattā,
Na te bhavaṃ aṭṭhamam ādiyanti;
Idampi saṃghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṃ,
Etena saccena suvatthi hotu.

Those who clearly distinguish the noble truths,
which have been well preached by the one with great wisdom,
no matter how great they become in heedlessness
still they do not take up an eighth existence—
this excellent treasure is in the Sangha:
by virtue of this truth may there be safety!

https://suttacentral.net/kp6/en/anandajoti
Na te bhavaṃ aṭṭhamam ādiyanti;
still they do not take up an eighth existence—

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/m/micchatta
micchatta:'wrongnesses' = prec.

Micchatta,(nt.) [abstr.fr.micchā] item of wrong,wrongness.There are 8 items of wrong,viz.the 8 wrong qualities as enumd under (an-) ariya-magga (see micchā),forming the contrary to the sammatta or righteousness of the Ariyan Path.These 8 at D.II,353; III,254; A.II,221; IV,237; Vbh.387; Vism.683.Besides these there is a set of 10,consisting of the above 8 plus micchā-ñāṇa and °vimutti wrong knowledge & wrong emancipation:D.III,290; Vbh.391; Vism.683 (where °ñāṇa & °viratti for vimutti).-- See further D.III,217 (°niyata); Pug.22; Dhs.1028 (cp.Dhs.trsl.§1028); Vbh.145; Tikp.32 (°niyata-citta),325 (°tika),354 (id.).(Page 532)
8 wrong qualities

https://suttacentral.net/an10.27/en/sujato
What eight?
Katamesu aṭṭhasu?
The eight worldly conditions. …
Aṭṭhasu lokadhammesu—
What nine?
Katamesu navasu?
The nine abodes of sentient beings. …
Navasu sattāvāsesu—
What ten?
Katamesu dasasu?
The ten ways of performing unskillful deeds.
Dasasu akusalesu kammapathesu—
8 wrong qualities + miccha nana and miccha vimutti

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:31 pm

auto wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:13 pm
https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who are committed to developing the meditation on love …
Santi, bhikkhave, bhikkhū imasmiṃ bhikkhusaṅghe mettābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā viharanti …
aniccasaññābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā viharanti—
Aniccasaññābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā
Complete translation:
Connected with (yutta - yuñjati) the wise (मनु manu) examination (अनुयोग anuyoga - अनुयुज् anuyuj [anu-yuj]) of the "cause to become" (भावन bhāvana [agt. causative. of √ भू bhū]) of anicca.

In other words:
Connected with the wise examination of what has caused anicca to be.

Where anicca has two intertwined meanings :
"Not one's own" and "impermanence".
The former being the cause of the latter.

::::::::::::::::::::
Nicca in Sanskrit is nitya ( नित्य). And it has two meanings in the Vedic litterature.

one’s own ( opp. to araṇa ) (RV) .
And
continual , perpetual , eternal (RV) .
:::::::::::::::::::::

Note:
Sometimes, translators add; sometimes, they remove. I am not sure that it makes things "simpler" to understand.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:50 pm

impermanence, inconstancy

rising, ceasing

whatever arises, will cease

everything is arising, ceasing, inconstant

impermanent

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:42 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:50 pm
impermanence, inconstancy
rising, ceasing
whatever arises, will cease
everything is arising, ceasing, inconstant
impermanent
Natumhāka = not yours
Anicca = not one's own
Anatta = not self

“Suppose, bhikkhus, people were to carry off the grass, sticks, branches, and foliage in this Jeta’s Grove, or to burn them, or to do with them as they wish. Would you think: ‘People are carrying us off, or burning us, or doing with us as they wish’?”
“No, venerable sir. For what reason? Because, venerable sir, that is neither our self nor what belongs to our self.”
“So too, bhikkhus, form is not yours … consciousness is not yours: abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness.”
SN 22.33 (Khandha Saṃyutta)

With form, Ānanda, an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned, an alteration of that which stands is discerned. With feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned, an alteration of that which stands is discerned. These, Ānanda, are the things of which an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned, an alteration of that which stands is discerned.
SN 22.37-38


Form is not self…. … Feeling is not self…. … Perception is not self…. Volitional formations are notcself…. Consciousness is not self. For if, bhikkhus, consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and it would be possible to have it of consciousness: ‘Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness not be thus.’ But because consciousness is nonself, consciousness leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of consciousness: ‘Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness not be thus".
SN 22.59

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.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:16 pm

ToVincent wrote: Anicca =
Ānanda, an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:42 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:16 pm
ToVincent wrote: Anicca =
Ānanda, an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned
Yes Cappuccino - an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned - but an arising and a vanishing that are not yours, not your own, and not (your) self; because the khandhas are natumhāka, anicca and anatta.

"Not your own" & "impermanent" , which are the intertwined definitions of anicca.

And as stated above in the SN 22.59 extract, it is not (your) self, (not yours, not your one's own (anicca)) ; and you can't change it (like make it permanent (nicca)).
What you experience is something that is not your one's own, and that is thererore impermanent - because that experience of the khandhas is impermanent by itself.
That all it means.

And not understanding that, is called sakkāyadiṭṭhi.
Which (sakkāyadiṭṭhi) by the way, is the Upanishadic, or modern Vedanta or Hinduist belief, or "whatever" belief in an external and internal making One.

This is transcendence in Buddhism (https://justpaste.it/1c78w).
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Last edited by ToVincent on Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:19 pm

ToVincent wrote: This is transcendence in Buddhism (https://justpaste.it/1c78w).
to avoid confusion, I will ignore

please quote from the scriptures

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:26 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:19 pm
ToVincent wrote: This is transcendence in Buddhism (https://justpaste.it/1c78w).
to avoid confusion, I will ignore

please quote from the scriptures
Well, the scriptures certainly don't say that you have to make One out of the internal and the external.
You might find that concept in some "temples" (Hindu, etc.), but not in the scriptures.

Now the Op question is about defining anicca.
And the Indian literature has both meanings around the time of Buddha.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:30 pm

:buddha1:

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:12 pm

Aniccasaññābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā

May I just add that this aniccasaññābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā in MN 118, of which I have even forgotten the sañña part in my translation, does not even appear in the samyukta-āgama parallel.
No mention whatsoever of this "connected with the wise examination of what has caused the perception of anicca to become".

Anyway, this kind of long compounded sentences, are often late additions.

Which doesn't make any difference, with the two meanings of anicca.

Metta
Last edited by ToVincent on Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by paul » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:19 pm

Quote: “impermanence. What the impermanence mean, what is the context, is it a color?”

Text extract:
"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity... [the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.”—MN 118 Thanissaro.

The context is the Buddha’s description of the hierachy of development of practice, beginning with the breath, and in seven levels, four of noble persons and three of beginner- intermediate, in descending order. In that sense it is a school lesson.
The second level is interesting because it denotes what the Buddha intended meditators to do after the breath. It is divided into two groups, the meditations on the brahma- viharas and the meditation on impermanence, and these correspond to the antidotes to anger and desire, the two principal hindrances. These antidotes relate to the removal of ‘greed and distress’ in the development of mindfulness, which forms the second part of the Anapanasati sutta, and should be implemented according to the temperamental bias towards either of the hindrances:

“On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.”—-MN 118 second section
Last edited by paul on Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:44 pm

“Perceiving impermanence, bhikkhus, developed and frequently practised, removes all sensual desire, removes all desire for material existence, removes all desire for becoming, removes all ignorance, and tears out all conceit of ’I am.’”

(Kindred Sayings, III, p. 132)

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Re: anicca, impermanence or?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 pm


Perceiving impermanence, bhikkhus, developed and frequently practised, removes all passion (vehement desire) for sensuality, removes all passion for materiality, removes all passion for existence, removes all ignorance, and uproots all conceit of ’I am.’”
Aniccasaññā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā sabbaṃ kāmarāgaṃ pariyādiyati, sabbaṃ rūparāgaṃ pariyādiyati, sabbaṃ bhavarāgaṃ pariyādiyati, sabbaṃ avijjaṃ pariyādiyati, sabbaṃ asmimānaṃ samūhanati.
राग rāga [act. rañj]
SN 22.102

Perception of impermanence, cultivated, much cultivated, enables one to abandon all craving for sensual pleasures, craving for form, craving for the formless, restlessness, conceit, and ignorance.
SA 270

One might want to extract the common denominator of both texts.

And might want also to compare that with the unparalleled:
Aniccasaññābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā, viz. :

Connected with (yutta - yuñjati) the wise (मनु manu) examination (अनुयोग anuyoga - अनुयुज् anuyuj [anu-yuj]) of the "cause to become" (भावन bhāvana [agt. causative. of √ भू bhū]) of the perception (saññā) of anicca.

Namely:
"connected with the wise examination of what has caused to become the perception of anicca".

Just wondering if there is such another occurence of Aniccasaññābhāvanānuyogamanuyuttā in the scriptures.

Do we have to examine what has caused to become the perception of anicca?
Or do we have just to develop/cultivate the perception of anicca. Namely the fact that our experience "on account of the co-manifestation" (paṭicca+saṁ+uppānna (उत्पद् utpad [ut-pad])) of the (external) impermanent khandhas is not our "one's own" ?
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Last edited by ToVincent on Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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