Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:47 am

Dear forum

Are there any suttas that directly say consciousness has a nutriment (ahara); i.e., where the nutriment is cause & consciousness is the effect?

Note: I am not asking about consciousness as a nutriment; i.e., where consciousness is cause/nutriment (such as in SN 12.63).

Thank you :smile:

P.S. I found one; however the usage in this sutta appears metaphorical rather than definitive:
Consciousness with its fuel should be seen as like the five kinds of plants propagated from seeds.

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, pañca bījajātāni, evaṃ viññāṇaṃ sāhāraṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.54/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Srilankaputra
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Re: The nutriment of consciousness ???

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:22 am

Do these count ?
"'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. 'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: The nutriment of consciousness ???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:11 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:22 am
Do these count ?
Thanks but sorry, no. These suttas does not contain the word "ahara" ("nutriment/food"). MN 148 uses the word "paṭicca" ("dependent on" condition/paccaya) and SN 57.57 uses the word "samudayā" ("origination").
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alfa
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Re: The nutriment of consciousness ???

Post by alfa » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:11 am
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:22 am
Do these count ?
Thanks but sorry, no. These suttas does not contain the word "ahara" ("nutriment/food"). MN 148 uses the word "paṭicca" ("dependent on" condition/paccaya) and SN 57.57 uses the word "samudayā" ("origination").
Aren't they the same, more or less? A depends on B for its existence. A 'feeds' on B for its existence.

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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:57 am

"Monks, there are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second; intellectual intention the third; and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Doesn't this imply food, contact, intellectual intention & consciousness are nutriments for consciousness ?

(consciousness also being a nutriment for it self, same way a flame is a nutriment for it self)
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

SarathW
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:11 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:49 am

alfa wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:53 am
Aren't they the same, more or less? A depends on B for its existence. A 'feeds' on B for its existence.
Thanks Alfa. My impression is the word "ahara" ("nutriment") is generally used in a special way. For example, in AN 10.61, "nutriment" appears substituted in a non-special way in the place of "cause" however I think this only occurs because it is not proper to say the "five hindrances are the cause of ignorance". Thus it appears nutriment has been used for every causal relationship in AN 10.61 because it must be used in a special way for the relationship of the hindrances & ignorance. It is wrong to say the five hindrances cause ignorance because the five hindrances only "feed" ignorance.
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:57 am
..four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being...
Doesn't this imply food, contact, intellectual intention & consciousness are nutriments for consciousness ?
Very good question. This depends on how "a being" is defined. If the definition of "a being" found in SN 5.10 & SN 23.2 is adhered to then "consciousness" is not "a being"; thus consciousness is not a nutriment for itself.
SarathW wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:11 am
Ahara Sutta. https://suttacentral.net/sn12.11/en/sujato
Thanks SarathW but this question is not intended for discussion or debate. Its just an academic question. The above sutta does not answer the question. The sutta does not say craving is the "nutriment" ("ahara") of consciousness. Regards
Bhikkhus, these four kinds of nutriment have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? These four kinds of nutriment have craving as their source, craving as their origin; they are born and produced from craving.

What is the source, origin, birthplace and root of these four fuels [nutriments]?

Ime ca, bhikkhave, cattāro āhārā kiṃnidānā kiṃsamudayā kiṃjātikā kiṃpabhavā?

Craving.

Ime cattāro āhārā taṇhānidānā taṇhāsamudayā taṇhājātikā taṇhāpabhavā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.11/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:27 am, edited 8 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:05 am

Consciousness can't sustain without six senses.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:06 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:05 am
Consciousness can't sustain without six senses.
I know this but the suttas that describe the conditionality of consciousness do not use the word "nutriment" ("ahara") to described the "conditions" ("paccaya") upon which consciousness "depends" ("paticca"). This topic is about "nutriment" ("ahara") and not about "condition" ("paccaya"). Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by sentinel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:47 am
Dear forum

Are there any suttas that directly say consciousness has a nutriment (ahara); i.e., where the nutriment is cause & consciousness is the effect?

Do you mind explaining , what you mean by nutriment as cause , consciousness as effect ?
:buddha1:

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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:12 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:06 am
Do you mind explaining , what you mean by nutriment as cause , consciousness as effect ?
The standard teaching on nutriment is there are four nutriments: (i) edible food; (ii) volition; (iii) contact and (iv) consciousness. These nutriments are a "cause" for beings that have been born. Or the nutriment of consciousness is a "cause" of nama-rupa, as follows:
When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended.

SN 12.63
This topic if only for those members who know the suttas very well (such as Venerable Dhammanando). This topic is not a quiz or puzzle. I am looking for answer that I do not know myself. Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by sentinel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:12 am
........
This topic if only for those members who know the suttas very well (such as Venerable Dhammanando). This topic is not a quiz or puzzle. I am looking for answer that I do not know myself. Thanks


Greetings doodoot ,

I am not an expert , but , I remembered something I listened before a talk by a bhikkhu , don't know I get it right or not or remember it correctly ? !
Enlighten me if I get it wrong .

If there is desire, relishing, and craving for consciousness as fuel, consciousness becomes established there and grows.

viññāṇe ce, bhikkhave, āhāre atthi rāgo atthi nandī atthi taṇhā, patiṭṭhitaṃ tattha viññāṇaṃ virūḷhaṃ.
:buddha1:

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DooDoot
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:05 pm

James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:27 am
consciousness as fuel [nutriment]
Thanks James but consciousness above appears to be the nutriment. The topic is not about consciousness as nutriment but about does consciousness have a nutriment?

Regards. :thanks: Bed time. :zzz:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by sentinel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:10 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:05 pm
James Tan wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:27 am
consciousness as fuel [nutriment]
Thanks James but consciousness above appears to be the nutriment. The topic is not about consciousness as nutriment but about does consciousness have a nutriment?

Regards. :thanks: Bed time. :zzz:
The way I read it is ,
Craving (for consciousness or xyz)
IS THE FUEL !!!!!

Craving IS the nutriment of consciousness .

Please take a look again .
Thanks
Last edited by sentinel on Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Does consciousness have a nutriment???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:11 pm

I started this topic because I am investigating the (3rd) section 'General Questionnaire on Being' in MN 38, which is also found in SN 12.31, for which I started a new somewhat related topic, below:

SN 12.31: Why is the term "nutriment" used ???
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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